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davidmbrady
06-15-2010, 05:42 PM
I'm installing my new chelsea pto and sauer-danfoss hydraulic pump. The old setup used a paper gasket between the pump and the pto. The gasket keeps the spline grease from seeping out. The new pump didn't come with a gasket. I suppose I could make one but I wonder if one is really needed. Alternatively I could use an RTV Gasket Maker. Anyone have a favorite technique or product that might work in this application?

BTW, the splines on the old PTO and the old Pump were so worn they barely engaged. It's hard to imagine them lasting much longer. Keep those splines greased!

oldtimer85
06-15-2010, 07:40 PM
David
Remember you need to set the back lash on the transmision to pto gears with a new pto.

davidmbrady
06-15-2010, 08:23 PM
David
Remember you need to set the back lash on the transmision to pto gears with a new pto.

Thanks Terry,

Chelsea furnished a steel gasket with the PTO which, according to their installation instructions, should provide the proper back lash when bolted to an Allison World transmission. (The Chelsea PTO part number specifies fitment to an Allison World transmission). So it looks like I'm good at the PTO to Allison interface. The question I have is the PTO to Sauer-Danfoss Pump interface. The original installation used a paper gasket. The new Pump didn't come with a gasket. I'm thinking RTV should work find. The only thing that this gasket does is prevent the spline grease from leaking out.

After reading the installation instructions, it appears the paper gasket is required only for the case of a "wet spline" lube system. I'm not doing this - the splines will be greased; therefore, I don't think a gasket isn't necessary.

Somervillebus
06-16-2010, 12:05 AM
I'm installing my new chelsea pto and sauer-danfoss hydraulic pump. The old setup used a paper gasket between the pump and the pto. The gasket keeps the spline grease from seeping out. The new pump didn't come with a gasket. I suppose I could make one but I wonder if one is really needed. Alternatively I could use an RTV Gasket Maker. Anyone have a favorite technique or product that might work in this application?

BTW, the splines on the old PTO and the old Pump were so worn they barely engaged. It's hard to imagine them lasting much longer. Keep those splines greased!

You can never over lube them ..... pump it in and let it expel through the vent on the top. Do it every couple of thousand miles. David, I cant remember if I had a gasket or not when I replaced my pump. I do remember the spline in bad shape as a result of non lubrication.

Randy Dupree
06-16-2010, 09:32 AM
we need pics of this,can one of you help with that?
Most of the guys here may not know where the PTO is,or where to grease it.

pgchd
06-17-2010, 10:43 AM
we need pics of this,can one of you help with that?
Most of the guys here may not know where the PTO is,or where to grease it.

David or Slim, Randy's suggestion would be a BIG help along with a part number.....I've looked and looked for that fitting and can not find it unless it is behind a "plate" on the PTO or I have a different PTO........hence the pn, thanks
David...... suggestion.if you have a local auto parts house that isn't a "chain store" but more " local /good ole boy" you might fine gasket paper in sheets and you could cut your own......believe it or not I found that type of store where we live,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it's been a life saver for this thing, take care and good luck!

Pepperell
06-17-2010, 11:03 AM
Back in the old days we would use an old pizza box and a ball peen hammer then plenty of Permatex. It's ugly, but it'll work in a pinch. :D:D

jking99
06-17-2010, 01:03 PM
Dad was a Senior Master Sgt Air Force Mechanic w/ 40 yrs total experience. Watched him more than once build a gasket from a Manila Folder and Permatex. But the sheets of gasket Material available nowdays is prefered.;)

b1gsur
06-17-2010, 01:11 PM
Make sure you are using spline grease that is recommended. Shooting it with chassis grease results in problem. Spline grease has a consistency that makes it stick to the spline and stay there.

Mfg of spline grease available on web. May be hard to find locally. Go to a lube distributor. 3mo or 5000 miles on the 450. Better do it every time or BIG bucks later.

Garages will say chassis lube ok. NOT. No similarities to spline grease.

Somervillebus
06-17-2010, 06:23 PM
David or Slim, Randy's suggestion would be a BIG help along with a part number.....I've looked and looked for that fitting and can not find it unless it is behind a "plate" on the PTO or I have a different PTO........hence the pn, thanks
David...... suggestion.if you have a local auto parts house that isn't a "chain store" but more " local /good ole boy" you might fine gasket paper in sheets and you could cut your own......believe it or not I found that type of store where we live,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it's been a life saver for this thing, take care and good luck!

http://globaldrivetrainsupply.com/chelsea-pto-constant-mesh-ten-bolt.html

Part Number 267XDFJP-M5GK

pic of grease fitting:

http://i50.tinypic.com/rh4m7d.jpg

Forgive me for not cleaning it up for the picture :D

Somervillebus
06-17-2010, 11:13 PM
Additional information for those interested:




Model Number: 267XDFJP-M5GK

eConfigured Product Summary
Basic Model 267 Series
Mounting Options X = Standard Mounting
Gear Ratio D
Input Gear Designator FJ = Allison
Lubrication P = Pressure Lube
Shift Option M = Constant Engagement No Shifter
Assembly Arrangement 5
Output Options GK = Greaseable SAE "B" 2 or 4 Bolt 7/8" 13T

iamflagman
06-18-2010, 06:24 AM
http://globaldrivetrainsupply.com/chelsea-pto-constant-mesh-ten-bolt.html

Part Number 267XDFJP-M5GK

pic of grease fitting:

http://i50.tinypic.com/rh4m7d.jpg

Forgive me for not cleaning it up for the picture :D


Slim,

http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/WOG%20SMILIES/angry_tough_guy-smoking21.gifYou should be ashamed of your self:D:rolleyes:

pgchd
06-18-2010, 09:03 AM
Slim,
Thank you SO MUCH for your quick response, great pictures, and detailed information. I know I am old and blind but even I could find that grease fitting!:D It figures, my 95 has a different PTO,GEEE what a surprise!:eek: The "cap" where you have a grease fitting, I have a "plate" and there is a very small "transmission fluid line" being fed into that spline assembly......... basic model 275/76, manufactured in 93 and I "believe" the part number is 328946x. FYI for those interested in the various vintages for future reference and completeness for all members!!!!! Thanks again!!!!

davidmbrady
06-18-2010, 10:02 AM
Pete,

The 267 series also has the small transmission oil line. You can just see it in Slim's pic. This line feeds pressurized tranny fluid to the pto. I think a wet spline lube system requires a second oil line. The pto cavity is separated from the spline cavity via an oil seal. IOW's I don't think that line is lubing your splines. May be worth a call to Chelsea. If you do have a wet spline, I'm very jealous. :)

davidmbrady
06-18-2010, 11:37 AM
I called Chelsea today. The spline grease they specify is part number 379831 available at fleetpride, florig, and national fleet.

The tech explained that the grease is meant to dampen vibrations which if left undamped can cause micro particles to fracture off the splines eventually leading to a smooth shaft. I asked if a wet spline system may flush these particles into the transmission causing issues - he said that the particles are microscopic and typical of the other particles produced inside a transmission, so no issue. There is a kit to convert the 267 series to a wet spline.

The vibrations that cause wear are most severe at idle. The pulses from the engine cause harmonics that increase the further away from the engine you get; i.e., the transmission gear gets some, the pto more, and the splines yet more. As you travel further downstream the additional play in the additional systems amplify the harmonics. Yet another reason not to idle the engine. (You may have noticed the "rattling box of coke bottles" sound that the PTO/Pump puts off at idle.

The proper way to grease is to shoot a couple of squirts into the zirk fitting every now and then depending upon usage. In a motorhome, driving once a month with 5 to 10K miles annual, maybe once or twice a year. For our application, one 11oz tube of grease should last 10 years. We don't want to fill the cavity. There should be room in the cavity for the displacement of the expelled grease. He mentioned that if the cavity is full, you may want to pull the pump and clean out some grease. Less is more.

The 275/76 series of pump does not have a zirk fitting and does not have a wet lube option. The grease that was installed on assembly is the only grease on the splines. He mentioned that if the coupling from the pto to the pump is a splined shaft (as opposed to a universal joint) one may want to pull the pump periodically to lube the splines.

BTW, for greased splines, no gasket is necessary between the PTO and the Pump.

If you wish you can talk to Tom directly:

662-895-1011 Chelsea Products, Olive Branch, Mississippi

Friday1
06-18-2010, 11:50 AM
In the old days a gasket made from a paper plate and a small ball pein hammer would work in many cases. I have made head gaskets for outboard motors from them in a pinch. Nowadays there is a silicone based gasket goo for every app. The grey silicone flange sealer would be a good candidate for this application. I always run a fine file or stone across the surfaces to take off any burrs or nicks. Clean the surfaces of oil and grease. Bolt it together and hope you don't have to split it-that silicone really gets ahold when it is flat and clean, but it won't leak. Another good product is YAMABOND available at motocross motorcycle shop or Yamaha dealers. Chrysler was one of the first automakers to go from gaskets to silicone. I can remember going to the parts department and they were throwing out a gasket board with rear end cover gaskets. Signs of the times. Rick in Ohio

susanmarycamilleri
09-13-2010, 03:05 PM
Is there another grease that can be used? Part #? The auto supplier is unable to find a reference for the Chlesea #.
thanks

davidmbrady
09-13-2010, 03:12 PM
Is there another grease that can be used? Part #? The auto supplier is unable to find a reference for the Chlesea #.
thanks

Peter,

I bought it from Florig and had it drop shipped to my house. Took only a couple of days to get. I suppose any grease is better than no grease, but the Chelsea folks that I spoke with strongly recommended 379831. They like it cause it's extremely high temp and it's extremely sticky and viscous at high temps - it stays put.

susanmarycamilleri
09-16-2010, 09:08 PM
I finally got three packets of the special grease for the PTO. My cap doesn't have the grease nipple, and it has a line from the bottom of the transmission to the PTO housing, it enters the casting above the top left bolt as per the photo on post #12. When I removed the bottom two bolts from the cover transmission fluid came out. My PTO is lubed by transmission fluid. There is a bearing race in the cap that I removed which mates to a roller bearing on the shaft in the PTO. I believe that the transmission pumps fluid into the PTO.
Looking inside everything in there is bathed in transmission fluid. Bottom line - I believe that I have three packets of the lube that I don't need.

I am still very thankful for the info, as it made me inspect a possible problem. Just thought that I would pass on what I found.

Jim Harvie
09-16-2010, 10:03 PM
David.
That steel gasket that came with the PTO should be the right thickness to insure proper backlash, But I would be sure to check it after it's installed. There are different thicknesses available, and as Terry said the backlash has to be correct, so you can add/subtract if you need more or less. If there is too much lash, it will make noise, if there is not enough, you'll burn it out in less than 5 minutes. The lash is checked with the PTO engaged, not running of course. Too much play is better than not enough.
Those PTOs can be mounted on both sides of some transmissions in which case you'd use an idler gear to reverse direction, which also has to be shimmed for backlash.
Not sure, but your kit should contain copper washers to use under the mounting bolts, to keep the Trans fluid from leaking. be sure to use those, and I'd locktite the bolts/studs.

susanmarycamilleri
09-16-2010, 11:11 PM
Having re-read this thread several times, I guess I am to understand that if you do not have the grease fitting in the cap then you have to separate the pump from the front of the PTO and then grease the spline shaft.
Is this correct? and has anybody separated the pump from the PTO while it is still on the tranmission?

fxdwg
09-17-2010, 02:44 PM
Peter,

While I haven't been under mine in several months now, I'm virtually positive I do have a grease fitting on my pto. It was tough to find, as it was heavily dirt covered.

b1gsur
04-22-2011, 04:59 PM
Where is the cheapest place to get this grease. Fleetpride in CA wants $23.61 per tube.

Dan

b1gsur
04-22-2011, 05:03 PM
Peter

You still have that grease? How much? Ship to CA?

Thanks
Dan

jasonwarner
04-24-2011, 11:37 PM
I know this is a really stupid question, but.... what utilizes a pto on a Bird?

Randy Dupree
04-24-2011, 11:50 PM
I know this is a really stupid question, but.... what utilizes a pto on a Bird?
the PTO power a hydraulic pump that runs the radiator fan.

davidmbrady
04-24-2011, 11:53 PM
the PTO power a hydraulic pump that runs the radiator fan.

Randy,

Do you know when the PTO was added? Did it start with the Wide Bodies? Up until some point, the radiator fan was powered by the hydraulic power steering pump, right?

Randy Dupree
04-24-2011, 11:59 PM
It started with the series 60 engines,and the 4060 allison.
1995WBs