Wrecked or Burned SOB's

[mrkane]

Anyone have experience with either the Halon or AFFF foam automatic fire suppression bottles?

Which type is preferred? What is the appropriate sizing for the main engine on a PT, or the generator compartment? Placement tips? Anyone had one operate on their coach...or a race car?

(...a different type of "insurance" ...)

--M.R.Kane
1987 PT40
currently Livingston, TX

[Rob Robinson]

My 94 had a Halon extinguisher in the pass through bay when I bought it. It also had a dry chem along side it. I have since added two 10lb foam and a couple of aerosol sized Big Shots for the kitchen area. I hope one day to buy another one or two Halons at a good price. I like the automatic idea but what price is it??

[birds_first]

Halon works great in a confind area where the Oxy supply is limited. If there is Oxy, halon will subdue the fire but may not extingush it completely. I had a halon system on my houseboat and knew it was only giving me a few more seconds to jump ship if I needed. It will allow for more time but it all depends of the severity of the fire and the amount of fuel & Oxy available.

[mrkane]

I like the automatic idea but what price is it??

Here are two sources...

Halon:

<http://firefight1.com/products.html>

Foam:

<http://www.macthefireguy.com/fire_safety_products.htm>


M.R.Kane
1987 PT40
currently Livingston, TX

[iamflagman]

Search For The Following:

Fire Supplies - Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.ioportracing.com/faq/fire.htm


What are the differences between extinguishing agents?

Halon 1211: Advantages are that it leaves no residue, effective, not thermal shocking and the bottle withstands higher cockpit heat compared to Halon 1301. Disadvantages are that it is toxic, does not quench the fire and is Ozone depleting. This chemical was not designed for system use as it is toxic, designed for hand held fire extinguishers only. This is one of two chemicals used by FireBottle (the other being CEA-614). Safecraft offers this chemical for high-heat installations. We recommend Halon 1211 when the bottle is placed over exhaust systems or stored in an area where the bottle will be subjected to sustained temperatures at or above 130º F.
CEA-614: This is a Halon substitute. Advantages are that it leaves no residue, not thermal shocking, and relatively Ozone safe. Disadvantages are that it does not quench the fire and it takes twice as much material to do the same job as Halon. It is also expensive. Although 5# of CEA-614 may be legal for use in the SCCA, it will not do the same job as 5# of Halon. This agent is not used very much anymore.
FE-36: This new agent is a Halon substitute. It is not considered Ozone-depleting. It is used by Safecraft in their SFI-certified systems. It leaves no residue and is not thermal shocking. Disadvantages are the same as CEA-614: it does not quench the fire and it takes twice as much material to do the same job as Halon. It is also more expensive than Halon. The SCCA now requires an SFI-certified system in all new cars. If this is what you need, either choose this agent, or the ESS system with AFFF.
AFFF or ColdFire: These are examples of foaming water-based systems. Advantages are that it quenches the fire. Disadvantages are that systems are heavier, will not spread out like Halon, leaves a mess both in the car and on the track. If you would like this agent, we provide ESS brand systems using AFFF.
Halon 1301: In my opinion, the best product on the market. Advantages are that it is effective, non-toxic, non-caustic, leave no residue, small, lightweight, industry standard with plenty of supply, no thermal shock, leaves no mess. Disadvantages are that it does not quench the fire and it is Ozone depleting.
What happened to Phoenix Fire Systems?

Phoenix seems to have gone out of business. Phoenix bottles cannot be refilled. We recommend that you replace your system with a new Safecraft system.
What areas should be covered by the system?

Read your rule book as to which areas are required to be covered. Always cover the driver area first. The other two areas are the fuel cell and the engine compartment. With a 5# system, I would only go to 2 areas. With a 10# system, there should be plenty of chemical to go to all three areas. Understand that most of the chemical will go to the shortest distance (path of least resistance). Design your system so that the driver's compartment will get the most chemical.
I've heard that Halon has been banned. Is that true?

Halon 1301 is stockpiled across the country. There is plenty of this around and it is readily available. Expect Halon 1301 to be around for at least another 10 years or more. The manufacture of this chemical has been banned by international treaty but the use of it has not. Halon can still be manufactured for critical uses such as the military.
What is the toxicity level of Halon and at what concentration will it extinguish a fire?

Halon 1211 and 1301 will extinguish a fire at about a 5% concentration. The difference between the two agents is that Halon 1211 becomes toxic to humans at about a 2% concentration and Halon 1301 becomes toxic at about 9% concentration. You can see why we prefer the Halon 1301, however, we have Halon 1211 in our LT and RS systems for high-heat environments. Halon 1211 can be better when mounting in a very hot location such as on top of the exhaust system. Halon 1301 will expand more rapidly than Halon 1211 and therefore it can have a tendency to over-pressurize the cylinder.
What should I do if my car catches on fire while I am racing?

Your first consideration is to get your car stopped quickly and safely. Using your best judgment as to how fast you need to get out of the car, try to find track personnel such as a flag person to park close to. Park the car in an area that is safe from other cars on the track and away from other items that may catch on fire such as gasoline storage or dry grass. After the car is stopped, turn off the engine, hold your breath, release the fire extinguisher system and then get out and away from the car. Remember the track is still "hot" and it would be really sad to get out of a burning car just to get hit by another racer passing by. Keep your head by practicing an emergency bail out.
If the fire is out of control, all of the above may "go out the window". Just remember three main things: Stop the car, hold your breath and get out!
Why should you hold your breath? Well, two reasons. One, fire smoke and fumes can be very hot and/or caustic and they can burn your lungs. Smoke inhalation can choke you and make you pass out. Two, high concentrations of Halon can be toxic.
Remember, your helmet and gloves will be very critical in a fire. The shield needs to be down to keep your face from burning and to keep the temperature of the air you breath lower. The gloves will protect your hands from hot metal and melted roll bar padding. Two layer SFI-rated gloves are highly recommended.

[iamflagman]

This is the system that I use in my race car, it a foam type fire suppression system. http://www.firecharger.com/ it could be adapted to the engine compartment, etc..

It doesn't have to be sent back to be refilled you can do it yourself easily.

[warbucks13477]

Bill I am not an expert in the insurance area but have educated myself enough so I can review insurance policies and determine what I have, and in fact did have a New York State License to sell insurance for the Guardian Insurance Company 40 years ago . However I still sit down with my insurance agent and review our policies every year just in case some law has changed etc, and HE gives me advice relative to what I should have in the way of liability etc on the vehicles ( taking into consideration our total net worth ), and the coverage on our house based on the current construction costs.

One forum member mentioned that he "stacks" his insurance polices so he has quadruple the regular with his car, coach etc. If he is trying to explain what I assume (boy is that ever a dangerous word) he means that if he insures his toad for $5,000/$10,000 liability which is the minimum in some states for you to get a registration for that vehicle, and he also has another car with the same coverage, and the same on his coach and then has an accident with the toad he is covered for $15,000/$30,000 liability. Not true I am sorry to say. You are covered for what ever coverages you have on that single car unless you have an umbrella policy and you have increased the coverages on EVERY vehicle you own to the coverage you need to qualify for an umbrella policy. There is a reason for that called shared liability between companies. My agent asked me if I have vehicles insured by another insurance agency other then Allstate and I do....State Farm and Progressive. In order to qualify for an umbrella policy with either State Farm or Allstate EVERY vehicle I own no matter who insures it, must have the coverages increased to the values necessary to qualify for the umbrella policy in my case $250,000/$500,000 liability. An umbrella policy for $500,000 to me makes no sense since you can get that coverage on a car or your motorhome at very little money above the minimum insurance rates, for my cars for instance about $35 each every 6 months.

Another comment interested me on this thread "Fixed value" . I dont know what that means unless he means "stated value" which is based on an appraisal and is agreed to before the insurance goes into effect. I have a "stated value " policy on my coach from Progressive which means if my coach is totaled, they will give me the stated value we have agreed upon. If you do not have a stated value policy and you total your coach, the insurance agency goes to the Bluebook for coaches (one for older coaches and one for newer ones) and looks up the numbers for your year coach. Sometimes with the options on the coach and sometimes not. Its a value THEY determine and unless you accept it, and it is normally a low ball figure, you may have to go to litigation to attempt to recover the value of the coach you believe it is worth. The insurance companies realize how expensive it is for you to get a lawyer to fight this so they win a very high percentage of the time.

If someone has information different then this I would be very interested in hearing it as it will help all of us. Better we discuss these things here rather then to wait until an event happens that we need this kind of information

[davidmbrady]

Tom,

If the coach is less than 2 years old and never titled you can get "total loss replacement" insurance which means that if the coach is a total loss, the insurance company will replace it with something of like value and quality, regardless of cost.

If the coach is used but less than 5 years old you can get "purchase price guarantee" insurance which means that the insurance company will reimburse you, up to the original purchase price, on a replacement coach.

If your coach is older than 5 years, you can get "stated value", which you describe above.

These are all ways to keep the insurance company from appraising your coach by book value.

I have "purchase price guarantee" on my coach. If you buy it when the coach is less than 5 years old, most insurance companies will honor it for as long as you have the policy. This rider adds $280 to my annual premium.

[Green_Bird]

Originally Posted by iamflagman

What happened to Phoenix Fire Systems?

Not sure I've still got one of their manual 5lb systems new in the box. The guy that owned Phoenix had a Cortez motorhome and we installed 10-15 of these systems for him and his pals. Mine is the older Halon that turns to Mustard gas when it gets hot. Also don't forget only trigger the halon after you've come to a complete stop or you'll just leave a cloud of the stuff behind where the fire ends up.

[ejallison1]

Tom,
When I fist move to Florida in 2004 from the midwest I too had never heard of stacked insurance. Not living there presently and am glad since all insurances are much higher and the property tax rates were outrageous. I was told this was due to large number of uninsured drivers from south of the border. Homeowners policy due to huricanes.
Anyway, the concept is that if you carry for instance a 100,000/300,000 liability on your vehicles you can stack the liability based upon how many vehicles you insure. In the above scenario if you had three vehicles and opted for the "stacked" coverage (it is optional) you would in essence be insured for 300,000/900,000. It was a totally new concept when I first moved there and it is available only for the liability portion of auto policies.
Florida is not, in my opinion, a cheap state as far as housing. Back in the heyday of ever escalating home values you were screwed unless you had a homestead exemption and property tax was still not cheap. Homestead limited the state to raising the assessed value of your home to 3%? of previous year's value. Those who had owned and claimed a homestead for 20+ years did great. I understand they have changed things and it is a bit better now but it was not friendly for retirees looking for a second home in Florida but the winter weather was nice. I was and am busy raising a family.