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-   -   Elect. sys. remodel - suggestions wanted (https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2284)

GPSGary 01-18-2009 02:43 PM

Elect. sys. remodel - suggestions wanted
 
I'm in the early stages of a complete remodel on my 84FC35SB and first up is the electrical system.


One thing that would make the design simpler is to disconnect the two 30A runs and only use the 50A connector with a “cheater” adapter on the 50A cord.


If I understand this correctly the only downside to this is if you hook up to shore power you will be limited to 30A MAX and never have the infrequently used option of connecting to two separate 30A supplies. Is this the ONLY downside? Have I over looked something?


I'm also convinced I'm going to need a separate house battery bank for the type of travel we anticipate so I will have one alternator, one shore hook-up and one generator (currently being refurbed for reliable operation). If anyone have done a similar remodel, I would absolutely love for you to share what you did. When I look at the options I'm overwhelmed by the choices and I've got to solidify this design soon.


Regards,
GPSGary
1984FC35SB

iamflagman 01-18-2009 03:34 PM

It works for me
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSGary (Post 12822)
I'm in the early stages of a complete remodel on my 84FC35SB and first up is the electrical system.


One thing that would make the design simpler is to disconnect the two 30A runs and only use the 50A connector with a “cheater” adapter on the 50A cord.


If I understand this correctly the only downside to this is if you hook up to shore power you will be limited to 30A MAX and never have the infrequently used option of connecting to two separate 30A supplies. Is this the ONLY downside? Have I over looked something?


I'm also convinced I'm going to need a separate house battery bank for the type of travel we anticipate so I will have one alternator, one shore hook-up and one generator (currently being refurbed for reliable operation). If anyone have done a similar remodel, I would absolutely love for you to share what you did. When I look at the options I'm overwhelmed by the choices and I've got to solidify this design soon.


Regards,
GPSGary
1984FC35SB

Gary,

That is the way that I have my 'Bird, one 50 amp hookup and if there is only a 30 amp hookup, I use a DOGBONE 30-50 adapter and then do power management to make sure that I don't go over 30 amps load, this works great for me.

Check out my photo web site through the link in my signature, you will see the separate battery bank design I use, since I do a lot of dry camping at races, etc.

I completely disconnected the two 30 amp receptacles and in my case I used the separate 30 amp breaker box after removing the breakers, to install my Progressive Industries 50 amp Hardwired Power Management System in there.

peteaeonix 01-18-2009 03:48 PM

Shore Power Cords and Adapters
 
I agree that your proposal to get rid of the dual 30A cables is a reasonable choice. If you use a "dog bone" connecter on a 50A cable, it limits you to 30A from the shore service. The dog bone is wired to share the 30 amps across the two 50 amp legs. Keep in mind that this is 30% of the normal 50A power. (The 50A is measured at 240VAC and the 30A is measured at 120VAC.) However, I've found that this is not that much of a problem in most cases. It does require using some common sense in power usage (e.g. use 1 AC or 1 heavy draw appliance (microwave) at any one time). Beyond that, there's no real problem with just using 30A -- and with a 50A cord using a dog bone connector you don't have to worry about which leg has power, as both legs will be hot.

A "cheater" adaptor is a different gadget. It's basically a 50A socket with two 30A cords/plugs exiting. Unlike the common dog bone adapter it supplies power to the two circuit legs independently. The theory is that you can plug into a 30A and a 20A to get 50% of your power as you would with a true 50A connection. This usually doesn't work as all power pedestals in RV parks have ground fault detectors which will sense the unbalanced neutral (inherent) with this connection and trip. If you have access to two 30A outlets, however, the cheater box will work just fine (giving you 30A on each of the 50A legs for about 60% of full power). From a practical standpoint, I've actually used my cheater box only twice in 2-1/2 years with my coach. (Note: you'll want the agreement of the RV park management before hooking up to multiple outlets on different pedestals -- and most aren't too keen on the idea (as you'll be using more electricity and raising their costs). I was only able to use my cheater box in a couple of cases where I'd reserved a 50A space and (for whatever reason) when I arrived, the 50A was available, so I was able to set up with an extension cord+the cheater box and draw from two pedestals.

To see a sample of a dog bone adapter:
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...-adapters/4134

To see a sample of a "cheater box" adapter:
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...-adapter/25774

I don't necessarily recommend Camping World (where I linked) but they do have convenient listings of these devices. The $20 they charge for a dog bone is about typical, but I think I paid about $60 instead of $100 for my cheater box from somewhere else. (Perhaps from an eBay vendor.)

iamflagman 01-18-2009 04:13 PM

Check Campground Power Pedistal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by peteaeonix (Post 12824)
......................A "cheater" adaptor is a different gadget. It's basically a 50A socket with two 30A cords/plugs exiting. Unlike the common dog bone adapter it supplies power to the two circuit legs independently. The theory is that you can plug into a 30A and a 20A to get 50% of your power as you would with a true 50A connection...........................


Also before using a CHEATER on a campground power pedestal 20 amp receptacle you have to make sure that it is wired independently of the 30 amp receptacle and not through it. With a multimeter or a test light plugged into the 20 amp receptacle, turn OFF the 30 amp circuit breaker, if the test light stays ON, or you get a correct voltage reading on the multimeter, then it is wired separately. I have been to some campgrounds where the 20 amp is wired through the 30 amp, they do this to either keep you from USING A CHEATER or the wiring at that sites power pedistal is NOT ADEQUATE to carry more than a 30 amp load.

Bill Pape 01-18-2009 04:51 PM

Shore Power Cords and House Batteries
 
It is unanimous, we never use the two 30's.
We have a 50 amp red cord and a 50 amp lighter weight wire cord with a 30 A male plug, this it can be adapted to a 110V 20 amp. Just learn to manage power,The bird will trip a 110 V GFI , this will need to be modified. But not a major issue.

We have 6 , 6volt batteries all tied together. This is never a problem and we dry camp a lot , Our Onan generator has a separate start battery and an alternator. The shore power and gennie power will always recharge the batteries.

iamflagman 01-18-2009 08:09 PM

GFI Tripping Issue
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pape (Post 12827)
................The bird will trip a 110 V GFI , this will need to be modified. But not a major issue................

Here is some information about the GFI TRIPPING ISSUE that I added to me web site, Steve Harrie gets the credit for the photos and the write up,

Some of the earlier model 'Birds had this panel located inside of the 'Bird, mine is located in the galley area and it has two volt meters along side of it, mine was much easter to remove than Steve's was.

Doug at PMMI is very easy to work with check out PMMI Electronics, REVERSE POLARITY INDICATOR, THE ULTIMATE HORN

http://www.pbase.com/iamflagman/image/53392030.jpg

Bill Pape 01-19-2009 10:43 AM

GFI Tripping Issue
 
John,

Thanks for posting the GFI pictures and info.
PMMI will rebuild the Polarity indicator circuit board.
Or, if you are handy with a low wattage soldering iron, PMMI will supply
the light emitting diodes and resistors. Call Doug

GPSGary 01-19-2009 05:54 PM

50A rotary switch
 
RE: 1984FCSB

I'm trying to trace out why I trip GFIs in the 50A position and not with one leg of the 30A cable hooked up.

I've got the dinette seat off and am confronted by two "mystery" components.

Anyone tell me what the little black plastic box (about 5 wires w/ a red and white wire on side terminals) mounted on top of the 50A switch housing is?

There is a 10A relay in the compartment with the switch housing mounted on a socket. Any clues on it's function would also be appreciated.

Regards,
GPSGary

hturner 12 01-19-2009 07:50 PM

50 amp power
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSGary (Post 12887)
RE: 1984FCSB

I'm trying to trace out why I trip GFIs in the 50A position and not with one leg of the 30A cable hooked up.

I've got the dinette seat off and am confronted by two "mystery" components.

Anyone tell me what the little black plastic box (about 5 wires w/ a red and white wire on side terminals) mounted on top of the 50A switch housing is?

There is a 10A relay in the compartment with the switch housing mounted on a socket. Any clues on it's function would also be appreciated.

Regards,
GPSGary

Gary
On our first trip out the genset ran great no problems, got to the campground as soon as I plugged into 50 shore power I got a hot to neutral short indication. Called the plant talked to Jessie in tech support he told me "that there were a lot of problems with the switch in the PT it is located just forward of the Rt wheel well under the copilot seat and there had been a mod to install drains and repair damaged areas". If you have never taken part of your bird apart in the summer in Biloxi MS with no power you have not lived. After taking the seat out, taking carpet loose, taking out a whole bunch of screws and a few other thing. I was able to get the switch out. My problem was the safeline module that was connected to the shore power hots on one side and the neutral on the other. cut all of the problems. Now I have to do a walk around and see that big yellow cord hanging out of the electrical box. Do not know how all of the S.O.B driver prevent ripping park power systems out without those two light on the instrument panel letting them know .

GPSGary 01-19-2009 08:03 PM

50A switch box service
 
Mine is under the dinette seat on the side of the door stairwell.

I've got the top of the seat off.
What I have in there is one chassis heater, the safe and the black metal housing for the 50A switch.

I've unscrewed everything connecting the black box and it is loose but the switch panel and box both only move about an inch.

Is there some trick to getting into this box or getting the box out?
I can't even get the face plate off ???

Is it Sawz-all time?

Regards,
GPSGary

Randy Dupree 01-19-2009 11:07 PM

Safeline
 
the little black box is the safe-line sending unit,they are no longer available.

Randy Dupree 01-19-2009 11:18 PM

what about the wires??

fxdwg 01-19-2009 11:22 PM

Aren't they rebuildable by the folks that make the reverse polarity sensor?

tulipvendor50 01-19-2009 11:38 PM

50A Rotary Switch
 
Gary:
If you by happen to take the safeline out, please do not throw it away.
Mine works, have not had it apart, but I doubt if there is really that much to it.
I will be redoing my electrical later this year, and I am sure that is one of the things that I will be looking into. I will also take the rotary switch apart and if there is pitting or burning on the contacts I will send it out for refurbishing.

hturner 12 01-20-2009 01:08 AM

safeline
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tulipvendor50 (Post 12903)
Gary:
If you by happen to take the safeline out, please do not throw it away.
Mine works, have not had it apart, but I doubt if there is really that much to it.
I will be redoing my electrical later this year, and I am sure that is one of the things that I will be looking into. I will also take the rotary switch apart and if there is pitting or burning on the contacts I will send it out for refurbishing.

Bill
Mine fell of the Bird just as we were leaving the campground. After a day & half working with it at least it did not end up on the other side of the campground. I think the rotary switch is about $800

Crit Bliss 01-20-2009 04:57 AM

Rotory Switch
 
I tried to take my rotary switch apart once, that turned out to be a big mistake. I still have it in a box, one day I will send it back to the manufacturer to be reassembled.

hturner 12 01-20-2009 06:51 AM

If It Ain't Broke...................
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crit Bliss (Post 12913)
I tried to take my rotary switch apart once, that turned out to be a big mistake. I still have it in a box, one day I will send it back to the manufacturer to be reassembled.

Crit

I have to go with some old advise "IF AIN'T BROKE DO NOT FIX IT". Once I took the safeline off no problems so I not touching it.

GPSGary 01-22-2009 08:30 PM

More GFI electrical gremlins - need help
 
RE: 1984FC35SB

This all relates to an earlier thread about very sporadic GFI trips.

I've made alot of progress;
The Rediline module is disconnected (for now and maybe forever)
The two fault indicators on the kitchen panel are out
The GFI breaker on the main panel is out

I don't trip the shore line GFI except with the "Front Receptacle" breaker on.

Before I go pulling every receptacle (and vacuum?) on that circuit only to find three days later I've missed one;

Does anyone have a layout diagram of the "Front Receptacle" circuit?

BTW - After doing all the above, the leg two meter on the co-pilot panel started showing a good reading. It was always flat line before but I just assumed the meter was bad or disconnected. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Regards,
GPSGary
gepp1@yahoo.com

GPSGary 01-22-2009 09:15 PM

Ooops - not Rediline
 
I meant the SafeLine module

Regards,
GPSGary

tulipvendor50 01-22-2009 11:51 PM

Electrical need help
 
Gary:
I believe one of the drawings will be in the package I sent you. But then, every coach is a little different as well.

hturner 12 01-23-2009 12:23 AM

Electrical problems
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tulipvendor50 (Post 13007)
Gary:
I believe one of the drawings will be in the package I sent you. But then, every coach is a little different as well.

Bill
I think you could take 3 of the line one in front, one in the middle and one behind it and all three would be different

GPSGary 01-27-2009 09:51 PM

GFI problems solved
 
This is a "breadcrumb" post.

I've been suffering from really odd GFI tripping problem for a week.

I pulled the polarity indicators from the galley panel and cut the Safe Line module out of the circuit but I was still getting non-consistent trips of a shore line GFI. At one point, I tripped a GFI simply by plugging in with the transfer switch being in the OFF position.

I finally isolated the problem to two breakers. One was the breaker with the reset switch at the bottom left of the panel.

After I took it out, I ohmed out the "reset" breaker and got some continuity between hot and neutral.

I replace both breakers with new "simple" breakers and I now no longer trip the shore power GFI.

ADVICE - Weird GFI problems ... pull that old style "GFI" breaker and replace with a simple breaker.

Regards,
GPSGary
1984FC35SB

GPSGary 01-29-2009 05:05 PM

Neutral to ground resistance
 
RE: 1984FC35SB

I spoke too soon that my electrical problems were fixed.

I have at least one bad circuit (Front receptacle). It keeps tripping the GFI.

I pulled the neutral off this circuit and sure enough I get static resistance to ground. I suspect the vacuum cleaner motor but I'll get to that.That's not my biggest problem.

I'm carefully putting the wiring back periodically checking that I still read infinite ohms between the neutral and ground bar. All of a sudden I'm getting a resistance reading.

I reverse the meter leads and now I'm getting infinite resistance again.

I've now gone to the trouble of pulling all the neutrals off so I can test them individually. All register infinity in one direction but multiple neutrals give me a non-infinite reading with the meter leads reversed.

There is only the one circuit that trips the GFI but why am I reading resistance between these neutrals and ground.?

Regards,
GPSGary

Bill Pape 01-29-2009 05:19 PM

Test
 
Gary,

I have never performed this test, nor can I answer.
But there are appliances hooked up such as hotwater tank, block heater, maybe battery heaters if equipped, TV's, Insta Hot, battery charger, inverter, microwave, food center,possibly more ....... this is just a guess. :confused::confused:

rob 01-29-2009 05:25 PM

Test
 
youre looking back through the diodes of your inverter its normal

GPSGary 02-02-2009 04:06 AM

More GFI problems
 
RE: 1984FC35SB

I'm down to only one circuit tripping a GFI but it's really weird. I've removed the Safeline module, the polarity indicator module AND replaced the bathroom breaker with a standard breaker.

The only circuit that "occasionally" trips the GFI is the "Front receptacle".

The reason I say occasionally is because three times now I have thought I found and cleared the problem. Turned the breaker on and everything worked fine for a while then totally out of the blue I trip the GFI.

The first two times this happened, I thought I might have done something but not this third time. We were just watching TV and the GFI tripped after it had been fine for about 2 hours. As far as I could tell absolutely nothing changed in the electrical system at the time the GFI tripped.

What can possibly be making a GFI trip after being fine for multiple hours and how do I find it?

Regards,
GPSGary

iamflagman 02-02-2009 06:19 AM

Multi Threads on Same Basic Topic NOW COMBINED
 
Good Morning Gary,

Let me start off by first saying this has been a very good and educational thread, but it has been split five times since it started two weeks ago, when it should have just continued on one thread, as all of the SPLIT THREAD TOPICS relate in one way or another back to the very first one, so I have combined them all back into the original Thread. There are a lot of issues spread throughout the threads that can be connected to each other and for the benefit of someone trying to read through multi threads and then see similar questions and answers in other threads under the same members name, it would be easier to just stick with the original and then CHANGE THE REPLY TOPIC to reflect what you are referring to and even better yet take the time to click on the quote button at the lower right of the reply box and either highlight what you are referring to, or eliminate all but that portion from the quote itself, similar to this below.

Quote:

even better yet take the time to click on the quote button at the lower right of the reply box and either highlight what you are referring to, or eliminate all but that portion from the quote itself.
This will make things a lot easier in the future if a member is doing a SEARCH on lets say GFI Tripping that will result in this one thread rather than five different threads that are related, it is easier to scroll up and down through one thread to read it, than to open five of them and then have to jump back and forth between them.

If you can't remember where the thread was that you originally started, it is easy to find by clicking on your user name at the top of any of your posts and choosing FIND ALL POSTS BY ........

Thanks and eep up the good work.

GPSGary 02-02-2009 04:19 PM

GFI problem - where are the junction boxes?
 
RE: 1984FC35SB



Activating my "Front receptacle" breaker trips a shore power GFI.

I looked really carefully at the BB 120/240 volt wiring diagram (2222669).

As far as I can see from that diagram, the only things on that circuit are a bunch of junction boxes and duplex outlets. Can anyone confirm this? (I know...they are all different, best guess).

I can find the outlets but I have yet to see a junction box. Are the junction boxes in the overhead or under the floor? I've got so much stuff torn apart, I'm reluctant to tear into more just blindly looking for "stuff".



Regards,
GPSGary

Bill Pape 02-02-2009 04:46 PM

Our Bird has several hidden boxes, just to name a few , Hot water tank under bed. block heater behind passenger kick panel, several behind the sink cabinet, roof antenna in overhead cabinet, microwave , in the over the sink cabinet,,,,,,,,,and probably more.....................

tulipvendor50 02-02-2009 05:37 PM

Elect. sys. remodel
 
Gary:
Many of the junction boxes are in the overhead cabinets, behind the false panel.

Tim 02-02-2009 06:25 PM

Outlets
 
one thing you dont want to overlook is the recept. in the LP compartment ,it should be on the gfi breaker

Tim

GPSGary 02-02-2009 08:45 PM

GFI problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim (Post 13525)
one thing you dont want to overlook is the recept. in the LP compartment ,it should be on the gfi breaker

Tim

I had the problem "Front receptacle" breaker off and was preparing to check the receptacle in the LP compartment when I decided to check for voltage. It was live so on my bird that receptacle isn't on the "Front receptacle" breaker. Didn't bother to figure out which one it was on.

I've only found one GFI breaker so far. Maybe that's my problem, there is another I haven't found.

Thanks,
GPSGary

Tim 02-02-2009 09:00 PM

no, there's only one gfi breaker and no gfi outlets, the outside recept is suppose to be on the gfi breaker, I have seen the wires in the metal recept boxes pushed in so tight they push the copper conductor thru the insulation and contacted the box,

Tim 02-02-2009 09:06 PM

are you tripping the gfi breaker in the coach breaker box or on the utility pole where your unit is plugged in,?

GPSGary 02-02-2009 09:52 PM

GFI problem
 
I'm tripping an external GFI breaker and the symptoms are really weird.

I've now removed the Safeline and polarity check modules and replaced the GFI breaker in the power center with a standard breaker.

My problems all started when I got sloppy. I accidentally unplugged the 50A cord at the rear plug while it was hot through a dogbone and 20a adapter to garage GFI. I didn't realize it was hot and plugged it back in while hot.

Since then I've had three different circuits trip the garage GFI. "Refrigerator receptacle" and "Bathroom and SO", plus the "Front receptacle". I cleared the "Refrigerator receptacle" trip and have replaced the "Bathroom and SO" breaker with a standard 20a breaker. Both those circuits work now and don't trip the external GFI.

I can't find what is causing the GFI trip on the "Front receptacle" and to make it worse, it seems to be intermittent. I thought I had it fixed three times only to have it trip for no apparent reason.

I'm now in the process of trying to pull everything on that breaker but since I don't have a good schematic or know where stuff is, it's hard.

Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

Regards,
GPSGary

Tim 02-02-2009 10:06 PM

well, Like someone said, most all the romex wires come out of the breaker box and go up and run along the top of the wall, behind the removable panels at the back of the lockers and cabinets, and have J boxes along the way where the wires for come out and go to different things and recepts down the walls and across the roof above the ceiling panels, so you shouold be able to disconnect the feed wires at each J box and see if you can locate the problem area

Bill Pape 02-08-2009 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSGary (Post 12997)
RE: 1984FC35SB

This all relates to an earlier thread about very sporadic GFI trips.

I've made alot of progress;
The Rediline module is disconnected (for now and maybe forever)
The two fault indicators on the kitchen panel are out
The GFI breaker on the main panel is out

I don't trip the shore line GFI except with the "Front Receptacle" breaker on.

Before I go pulling every receptacle (and vacuum?) on that circuit only to find three days later I've missed one;

Does anyone have a layout diagram of the "Front Receptacle" circuit?

BTW - After doing all the above, the leg two meter on the co-pilot panel started showing a good reading. It was always flat line before but I just assumed the meter was bad or disconnected. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Regards,
GPSGary
gepp1@yahoo.com

Hey Gary ,

Not sure you still need this info, I stumbled across this in the old Yahoo forum files
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YOWOSaH...%20RECEPTACLES

GPSGary 02-08-2009 02:10 PM

Electrical receptacles
 
Bill,

Could you re-do that link. That gives me "Document not found"

Regards,
Gary

Bill Pape 02-08-2009 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSGary (Post 13931)
Bill,

Could you re-do that link. That gives me "Document not found"

Regards,
Gary

Sorry Gary , it works for me????? Below is the cut & paste.


http://www.pbase.com/iamflagman/image/53392030


> The only other issue is sometimes the GFI trips, PMMI has a fix for
> this problem.



"The LEDs and resistors can be replaced with lower current parts to
prevent the GFIs from tripping. We can do this for you for a $50 bench
charge -- which includes the parts -- if you are interested...the
reverse polarity indicator just taps into the power line in parallel
-- temporarily removing it should not affect the use of coach. Of
course, you will want to be cautious where you plug-in since you won't
have the indicator there to tell you of potentially hazardous
situations...


Just send the unit to the following address.
Thanks,
Doug Hampton

PMMI Electronics
1007 Spanish Moss Lane
Houston, TX 77077

doug.hampton@pmmi-electronics.com
281-293-8000 voice
281-293-8005 fax

GPSGary 02-08-2009 03:49 PM

Electrical receptacles
 
That link works.

Here's the one about receptacles I can't get to work.
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YOWOSaH...%20RECEPTACLES

Please try again.

Regards,
GPSGary
84FC35SB


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