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-   -   retarder inop (https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34857)

captainbb 09-18-2019 02:26 PM

retarder inop
 
Since I have owned this coach the retarder has been a source of stress. At times it would not work at all then it would work as advertised then a couple of times it came on going up hill, thought the engine was broke before I noticed the retarder light on. when it did work it worked great!

Well it has quit playing games with me and now does not work at all. The way I use it is in the apply position so when I take my foot off the throttle the light comes on and the coach should start to slow down. At this point the light indicating proper operation comes on and goes out as I take my foot off/on the throttle, the light also worked when the switch is in the opposite position (enable) which means retarder comes on (or should) when i step on the brakes.

Took it to a shop last week and after 5 days and 5hr charge they decided they could not fix it. So I am trying to wiggle my old butt around the transmission trying to trouble shoot this thing. The shop told me they had disconnected the air line which supplies air to the air cylinder which goes in the transmission to control the fluid, they were unable to get any air. There is a solenoid before the air cylinder which is normally closed and I am assuming turns the air on and off as the signal tells it to. My questions are since the retarder only works once you are moving how do I simulate that so I can troubleshoot what is happening? I am assuming the signal for on/off is coming from the computer? If I put shop air to the system can I check for leaks up to that solenoid? with the air to the solenoid if I cut the wire and put 12 volts to the solenoid shouldn't it activate the air cylinder to the transmission?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Alever 09-18-2019 03:44 PM

Brian, the green light on the dash is powered by the same circuit and it goes all the way back to the solenoid valve. If the switch is in either apply or enable position and the brake lights are on/applied with the green light on the dash lit you should have +12 volts to the solenoid valve. I can hear mine release when I release the brakes after coming to a stop. As long as I have the brake pedal down and the brakes are lit up the valve is applied keeping the solenoid energized.

I would find the valve and unhook the inlet and spray some marvel mystery oil in there once you find you have power and a good ground. May just be a bad ground wire too.

If you look in the DDECII Drawings in the archives it gives a good print to follow for Wide Bodies.

I am sure John Wyatt can add the link here. Its above my pay grade.

Good luck and prop that bus up for safety!

Randy Dupree 09-18-2019 03:56 PM

I have seen the air cylinder have a bent shaft.

brhodes 09-18-2019 05:12 PM

Retarder air is fed from a pressure protection valve near the drive axle to a normaly closed control solenoid which receives its signal from K22B relay when using ENABLE and K22A when using Full Time. The indicator lamp is fed from K19 relay all which are located in the outer front main electrical panel.

You should have air pressure up to the solenoid and with the ignition on and 12 volts to the center tap of the selector switch. Apply the switch and make sure the 2 above listed relays are working, then see if you have 12 volts to the solenoid when the enable switch is selected. Both relays activate the solenoid from pin 87 when the relay is activated.

Wires 211 & 213 are from the ECU Chassis connector.
Brake initiated is fedd from one of the brake pressure switches up front near the generator bay #19 Yellow wire.

Dieselbird01 09-18-2019 06:00 PM

I would first check pin #1 of the "Chassis B" Amp connector.

The Retarder "Engaged" light and the Retarder Stop Light relay "K19" are both energized via the enable retarder relay K22B or the apply retarder relay K22A but... that signal also passes through pin #1 of a Circular Amp connector called "Chassis B" before going to the retarder solenoid.

The “Chassis B” Amp connector is one of the connectors that are used to penetrate the Bulkhead to get wires from the control panel out to the chassis components. The Chassis B Amp connector is out front above the driver side headlights. It may be difficult to see because it's behind another row of Amp connectors but it's back there.

While you're at it, look closely at all of the Chassis B pins especially pin #14 because a bad pin #14 can cause the cruise control to Not disengage when you step on the brakes!!!

captainbb 09-19-2019 11:48 AM

First off let me thank you guys for your replies! What I have found so far. I found the solenoid which supplies air to the cylinder applied 12v to solenoid and it worked, I know that because it has an air leak where the line goes into the cylinder, you might say well there is the problem except this is the part the shop was working on and they left it that way. So need to fix but do not believe it was the problem.

John, I checked chassis b plug, and pin 1 & 14 all seems/ looks good

Barry, I turn on the ignition I have 12v on the center pin of the switch but no light indicating it is on. With ignition on I do not have 12v anywhere on k22a, 22b. There is 12v on pin 87 of k19.

Allen, I believe you are saying the same thing as Barry but either our system are different or mine has been screwed up forever. My indicator light goes out before I stop which is telling me the system has shutdown and no power to the solenoid, am I wrong?

On my bus if it is not traveling over 5 mph or some set speed the indicator light goes out and retarder quits working. I do not understand how the system knows the bus is moving but it does and since that is the case aren’t my readings on the relays exactly what you would expect? How can I simulate the bus moving so I can check to see if the solenoid is getting 12v? Or am I nuts and looking At this all wrong? Going to go fix the air leak now any guidance is wonderful.

brhodes 09-19-2019 12:11 PM

I would replace the brake switch indicated above with the YELLOW wire as it is a standard part.

It is in the generator fan bay and see if that elliminates your issue.

Alever 09-19-2019 02:14 PM

Brian,
I was wondering is yours a DDEC1 or a DDEC 2? I seen where some 91 WBs could be either engine computer system.
I took the 2 for granted but I wanted to check.
That would impact the troubleshooting.

captainbb 09-19-2019 02:49 PM

Allen I can only tell you what I have been told and that it is a 2, no sure how to check.

Alever 09-19-2019 03:10 PM

Send us a picture or two of the upper part of the engine. That is where the DDEC 2 ECM lives. It sits right behind the water crossover pipe and is under the turbo Y inlet connector.

A couple pictures would help the brain trust out here in WOG land. I believe the DDEC 1 has two different ECMs and looks different than the DDEC 2.


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