Wanderlodge Owners Group  
BuyByeBlueBird.com
Donate

Go Back   Wanderlodge Owners Group > Mechanic's Corner > LX and LXI (Unique Issues)

LX and LXI (Unique Issues) If you have a unique issue with your LX or LXI model coach and it can't be answered in one of the other forums here, then this is where you can list it, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE ISSUES INVOLVED WITH ANY LAWSUIT.....list your LX and LXI Parts here too.

Site Search:
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 06-20-2011
Randy Dupree's Avatar
Randy Dupree Randy Dupree is offline
Forum owner
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port St Joe,Fl
Posts: 36,879
Default

Ahhh!!!!!!
Great stuff here.
I want to add a few thoughts about the independent suspension and "caster" gain (see Davids Drawing).
Most suspension systems are designed to have caster gain when turning into a curve in the road,changing the angle of the tire to the road will improve the way the coach responds in the turn.
This caster gain may help prevent weird tire wear because the tire is not being compressed on the outside edge,the caster gain takes weight off the outside sidewall of the tire and puts in on the inside sidewall.

Of course caster also makes changes in alignment when the tires are turned.

Heres where i wish we had a set of wheel scales,when your coach (any coach,car truck) is on scales with the front wheels in the straight ahead position you will get weights of lets say 1000lbs per front wheel (this is a made up number for easy math).
Then,if you turn the wheels all the way to the left you may see a weight change of maybe 200 lbs per wheel,you may gain 200 on one wheel and loose 200 on the other front wheel.
Caster and camber contribute to this.
Camber gain also contributes to this,when your air bag compresses ( ride height changes) you get caster and camber gain,on the independent front suspension like the 380 and the 450 have.

But,in the real world as long as it drives good,and your happy thats all that matters!
Paul Lazar may be the only guy here that really wants a race car suspension in a wanderlodge!

Ross,A new thread for 450's problems and fixes is a great idea.
David,we really need some scales!
__________________
DO NOT SEND PM
email me at randy@randydupree.com only.

Randy Dupree
2000 LXI 43
Bainbridge,Ga.
Port St Joe Fl.
www.buybyebluebird.com

randy@randydupree.com
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-20-2011
pgchd
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Dupree View Post
Ahhh!!!!!!
Great stuff here.
Ross,A new thread for 450's problems and fixes is a great idea.
David,we really need some scales!
Yep, I agree.... a new thread on the m450 recall fixes would be great. I won't speak for Chuck M but I will agree with him as well, there is MORE than1 person looking for an m450 upgrade! THere are currently at least 2 beautiful sweeties currently on the market(well overpriced given what we know right now technically). The single BIGGEST reason I would not even consider pulling the trigger is there is just not enough info out there ANYWHERE about them. The m380 guys have done a SUPER job IMHO!!!!! At least with what they posted, you can make an informed decision! NUFF said, flame suit on and "Special" thank you to "Doubledoc" for having the courage to post about his issues, I read every one of them!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-20-2011
davidmbrady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Ross, I hear you. It's all about reserve capacity and I understand that that's in limited supply on the M450 steer axle, and I also understand that you owners know the M450 way better than any of us. Thanks for entertaining some zainy ideas. I would never recommend that anyone else implement these hypothetical changes, but on my personal bus I might play a bit.

I see that Arvin Meritor is now offering an 18K steer axle, the RIS18EF. I wonder if it's just an up-certified RIS16EF or if it uses new components. It'd be interesting to see if the uprights/spindles provide clearance to handle 10" wheels and 365 tires.

I seem to recall an RIS16EF system safety factor of 1.2 or so. This puts the 16K suspension at 19200 lb, 315 tires brings this down to 18200 lb, 365's could take it back up to 19200 and with less air pressure. While not a huge safety factor, it is something that I would take into consideration if I were to re-enable Hadley active air on my private coach. This safety factor plays into the road camber changes that you point out, the caster jacking that Randy points out, and other scenarios where we might have prolonged steer axle pressure changes. Short term low speed stuff, like exit ramps are of a smaller concern to me. Adding instrumentation with data logging to monitor steer axle air bag pressures would be cool to make sure that large long duration weight transfers aren't taking place. IOW's it'd be fun to toy with.

The equal pressure HCV setting at the steer axle is something that might be attempted on an individual bus basis. Some buses weigh less than others. If the axle rating is 17K and the bus comes in at 16K static, and if the safety factor allows 18.2K, then this reserve capacity may be enough for an individual bus owner. The HCV's at the drive axle would still be set to their suspension midpoints. In effect, we're mimicking the traditional tripod setup. The drive axle shoulders the static weight imbalance, the steer axle is kept 'equal-pressure' left to right, reserve capacity (on a bus by bus basis) handles road camber, caster jacking, active air pressure changes on clover-leafs and high speed sweepers, etc, with lots of data logging, pressure and temperature checking, tire wear monitoring etc. IOW's it would help to be a geek!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-20-2011
dentmac dentmac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wiarton,Ontario
Posts: 472
Default 450 LXI Hadley

David said: "... If the axle rating is 17K and the bus comes in at 16K static, and if the safety factor allows 18.2K, then this reserve capacity may be enough for an individual bus owner. "
IF!
That is the problem. The axle rating was not a change in the physical axle, just a degraded test(reduced cycles). So is safety factor partially used?
You say 16,000 static-- using "CCC" with full water and 4 people? or ?
The coaches have weight placards in the bays indicating the maximums allowed in that vertical segment of the coach. These are the maximum limits with 2 persons at 154 # and 1/4 water. These numbers can be worked back to show the front axle capacity. Add 2 more light people and full water ( or partially full grey/black) and there may be zero cargo capacity forward of the drive axle.
Can the steering system, sub-frame accept more weight? gag
__________________
Ross MacKillop
2006 450 LXi
Wiarton Ontario.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-20-2011
Randy Dupree's Avatar
Randy Dupree Randy Dupree is offline
Forum owner
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port St Joe,Fl
Posts: 36,879
Default

There is a way to put the bigger wheels and tires on the front of a 450,its been done and all it takes is the right wheel,from what i understand.
__________________
DO NOT SEND PM
email me at randy@randydupree.com only.

Randy Dupree
2000 LXI 43
Bainbridge,Ga.
Port St Joe Fl.
www.buybyebluebird.com

randy@randydupree.com
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-20-2011
G_man's Avatar
G_man G_man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Litchfield
Posts: 786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dentmac View Post
<<<Snip>>> These are the maximum limits with 2 persons at 154 # and 1/4 water.
1/2 water, not 1/4 according to the docs with my coach. Check with Alan Barbee on this as he supervised the weighing. I know the carrying capacities vary considerably but the criteria should be constant. There will be variables though. I had a stuck black water valve and the weights were taken with 1/2 tank. Many coaches were weighed with owners belongings already in the coach so weights are not for the whole vertical portion, just the bays. So many variables makes one wonder and it is best to get your own weights after the coach is loaded the way you want. I am not at all worried on weights since the recalls were done and it rides noticeably better than my LXi43' the way it sits right now but not as good as advertised or paid for. A larger tire would allow for a lower inflation pressure that should further enhance the ride. Ideally, the recall should have included reactivation of the Hadley air system and that has not yet been done.
__________________
Rich D. Former Owner; '90 PT40, '99LXi43 & '06 M450 LXi (CT)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-20-2011
cmillsap
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, David and Ross,

I do understand it now. Certainly the engineers at BB applied what they thought was the best way to resolve the initial problem of over weighted front axles. Their solution was to remove as much weight as possible and eliminate the front axle Active Air function.

As David has pointed out, it’s difficult to determine how much weight gets transferred to the outside wheels due to body sway (inertia) when negotiating curves. Obviously, the slower the speed around curves, the less the weight transfers. At any rate, this transfer of weight is generally only for a short period of time and may not be sufficient to dramatically overload an axle.

Therefore, if I was to consider trading up to a M450, my concern regarding this particular Bluebird “fix” would be the twisting of the frame and the resulting twisting and stressing of the body. I guess it would depend on how much twisting the body does but it wouldn’t take too much to stress and fatigue all those connecting points and mating surfaces throughout the body structure. Squeaks and rattles could possible occur after a period of time. As an owner, the idea of letting the frame twist and the resultant body stress would not set well with me.

Maybe there’s an alternative way to minimize the frame twist and body stress. At least, I agree with David that I would be tempted to try to improve upon the present “fix”.

For example; rather than have the rear Active Air travel 2”s above and below the HCV road height setting at the middle of the bags inflation range; why not reduce that to 1” and reactivate the front Active Air system and set the front air bags travel length at the same 1” inch travel above and below the HCV road height setting. This would reduce the frame twisting and reduce the body tipping by about 50%. Also, this adjustment would put little or no more weight on the front axles as there is presently and you would have the benefit of the Active Air on all four corners. Albeit, at the 50% level.

Pete said it very well and I agree; if there were less “unknowns” about the M450, I would have a greater interest in trading up.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-23-2015
dbmotors dbmotors is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Midland
Posts: 37
Default

After reading about this on the forum I had to look to see what had been done to tie the front bags together. Here is what my coach had done to it in bay 1 on the drivers side you can see the Hadley system it is a rectangular block with air lines running out of it one for each air bag. On my system the two front lines were tied together using a solenoid valve and a 1/8" air line. The valve with the coach in neutral is held open this allows the system to work as designed. One put into drive the valve closes and ties the front air bags together. The problem is the original lines are 3/8" so with the valve closed one bag is being supplied air through the 3/8" line the other though the 1/8" jumper installed during the recall. I don't see anyway this can work properly someone correct me if I am missing something.
__________________
Bob Young
Midland, TX
2006 450LXI
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-23-2015
dentmac dentmac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wiarton,Ontario
Posts: 472
Default

Hi,
I'm a little confused at the description and am rusty as to the details.
The change back would require disconnecting the solenoid(cutting the wire (prevents the cross flow of air) and having the ecu reprogrammed back to its original code where both height sensors are active and the separate valves to each front wheel are functional .
__________________
Ross MacKillop
2006 450 LXi
Wiarton Ontario.

Last edited by dentmac; 06-23-2015 at 07:59 PM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-26-2017
dbmotors dbmotors is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Midland
Posts: 37
Default

To see if the factory tied your front air bags together just look at the system in bay 1 on the ceiling if you see a small diameter air line with a solenoid valve (my line was yellow) attached tieing the two front air bags together you will have your answer.
__________________
Bob Young
Midland, TX
2006 450LXI
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ramco mirrors on a 450LXI Doubledoc LX and LXI (Unique Issues) 7 01-08-2011 04:59 PM
We're looking for all 450LXi owners adieu2y TEST MESSAGES HERE 0 11-25-2010 09:44 PM
2006 450LXI,low miles,all recalls done Randy Dupree Coaches For Sale by WOG Members 9 08-29-2009 06:44 PM
2006 450LXi Under 15k miles Buyin' Brian Coaches For Sale by WOG Members 6 07-25-2009 06:18 PM
450LXi Schematics davidmbrady Tires, Wheels, Brakes, Steering and Suspensions 2 03-01-2009 08:55 PM

Web Search:

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.