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M450 (Unique Issues) If you have a unique issue with your M450 model coach and it can't be answered in one of the other forums here, then this is where you can list it.....list your M450 Parts here too. NO DISCUSSION OF ANY OF THE M450 LAWSUITS ALLOWED HERE.

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  #1  
Old 02-08-2015
Doubledoc Doubledoc is offline
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Default Air Suspension Issue

After solving the accessory air leaks, I found that our coach(2006 450LXI) has an air suspension problem as well.

When the coach is allowed to sit without a source of compressed air for several weeks, the left rear corner of the coach drops down (both drive and tag axel). The right side seems fine. The front left side will begin to sag and lower after another few weeks. Right side is still OK. The system air pressure normally 125 psi drops to about 75 psi and holds at that pressure as indicated on the front, rear, and acessory air pressure gauges. When the engine is started and run a few minutes, all air pressures return to normal and so does the ride height.
The coach has a tag dump capability but not a system dump.
It is possible that one or more of the Ride Height Control (RHC) valves on the left side are slowly leaking and could be the problem.

If so, should only the leaking RHC valves be replaced or should they be replaced in pairs( left and right side) or should all RHC valves be replaced ??

Any other ideas as to what would cause this problem? air bags etc?
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'06 450LXI
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2015
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Dieselbird01 Dieselbird01 is offline
John Wyatt – Administrator/Moderator
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubledoc View Post
After solving the accessory air leaks, I found that our coach(2006 450LXI) has an air suspension problem as well.

When the coach is allowed to sit without a source of compressed air for several weeks, the left rear corner of the coach drops down (both drive and tag axel). The right side seems fine. The front left side will begin to sag and lower after another few weeks. Right side is still OK. The system air pressure normally 125 psi drops to about 75 psi and holds at that pressure as indicated on the front, rear, and acessory air pressure gauges. When the engine is started and run a few minutes, all air pressures return to normal and so does the ride height.
The coach has a tag dump capability but not a system dump.
It is possible that one or more of the Ride Height Control (RHC) valves on the left side are slowly leaking and could be the problem.

If so, should only the leaking RHC valves be replaced or should they be replaced in pairs( left and right side) or should all RHC valves be replaced ??

Any other ideas as to what would cause this problem? air bags etc?

Hi Jim,

Aren’t you running a 120 volt auxiliary compressor?

Nothing wrong with eliminating air leaks and I suppose with enough effort and handpicked components, an air system could eventually be made virtually leak free but going several weeks without running an auxiliary compressor and having no air leakage would be cause for celebration for many of us.

Did your coach use to hold pressure for weeks at a time during the winter without an aux compressor?

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  #3  
Old 02-08-2015
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A few weeks holding air pressure is great. I would not be concerned at all.
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2015
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Ed Wimberley Ed Wimberley is offline
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Jim
In the front compartment under the drivers seat .All the way towards the front and so far towards the back lower corner buried in foam insulation, there is a water separator that has been kown to cause problems. It could be a small part of your air system leaking .
The quarter turn valve mounted on the wall only drains the aux tank water. There is another valve on bottom of water separator , you can expect to find lots of corrosion, aluminum hates water. Plan on replacing water separator.
Ross Mackillop had this problem....rmackillop@gmail.com. his e.mail
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  #5  
Old 02-08-2015
Doubledoc Doubledoc is offline
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John,
We have a 110v AC compressor that operates, 0ff at 120 psi ,on 100psi. We also have a 12v dc system which operates ,off at 80psi ,on at 60 psi. The dc system is to operate the toilet when dry camping for awhile.

Usually I had the 110VAC system on when ever in storage and pugged in. The 12v dc system is off all the time unless dry camping. However, the leaks in Acc air were so great that the 110VAC cycled every 30 minutes. The acc air system leaks were found after lots of trial and error etc attempts-see other thread.

The coach is stored about 30 minutes from home so I did not turn on the 110VAC system when I last put the coach in storage because I did not want to run the risk of cycling too much.
Hence I found the suspension leaks.

Your info says don't worry about the leaks they are expected. Maybe I will do just that- not worry about them.

After a little research into RHC valves, I found that there is a new design (3-4 yrs old) that makes RHC valves much less likely to leak after extended use.
It is my understanding that RHC valves move very little up or down during life and that a leak can develope around there shaft seal in the older design.

Thanks for the input.
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'06 450LXI
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2015
dentmac dentmac is offline
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Hi,
I don't know where the 450 has RHC valves or what they look like. I would like to know...pics?
Here is my understanding of the air system.
Engine compressor feeds the Wet Tank and the front and rear tanks to 125 psi. These tanks each feed the brakes, front and rear separately.
The front tank feeds the Accessory tank and has check valve. Therefore, these front and rear tanks can lose pressure with no effect on the accessory air or the suspension height.
The accessory tank is also supplied by 120 and 12V compressors (more check valves).
Accessory air supplies Toilet, air horn,slide out locking rams,4 air bags supporting the genset, front door lock and the Hadley suspension system controller. The step cover is electric. More check valves... to the genset air mounts (Note that BB may have dispensed with the genset engine mount system with the genset move).I doubt that there is a check valve to the Hadley as it senses low air pressure . The Hadley gets its height inputs from electronic height sensors and controls individual corner heights from the central unit.
So , I think if the suspension drops, the leak is after the accessory air....As it is only one corner, I suspect the Hadley controller ,the air line/connection to those bags. A faulty air bag is unlikely as you have 2 bags dropping.
You can drop all air(almost) by pressing and holding the "Down" button on the Hadley controller for 3 + seconds.. The indicator goes solid.
My accessory now runs 45 seconds every 3.5 hours and seems to be getting worse.. PIA Need a totally quite area to hear leaks (and perhaps younger ears).
My suspension will stay up for months without compressors...That's right ..Eh? Ed??
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  #7  
Old 02-09-2015
Doubledoc Doubledoc is offline
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Ross,
I agree with you that leak is probably after the acc air system. I did not know about dumping all air in suspension via Hadley- good to know. Your discription of the air system is quite complete. I wonder if the Hadley system is active when the coach is all shut down? My guess is that it is not. If so, then the RHC valves are not being controlled by the Hadley system when in storage. Therefore, I started looking into the RHC valves as the source of the leak. There are several air bags involved so it may not be air bags.
Glad to hear that your coach stays level for a long time without compressed air source.

I will try to get more info on RHC valves soon. I was told that the new design valves have a rounded body and the old design valves have a square body. Also I would guess that there are 6 RHC on our birds and that two of them on the tag are dumpable hence the tag dump feature.

As to your acc air cycle time, when mine was at 4-5 hours, leaks were found with the connectors at the air distribution point for the 6 slide locks (bay2). What does the acc air pressure go to if you store your coach without compressed air source for a few weeks? Mine used to go to zero now stays at 75 psi.
Thanks for info,
Jim
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'06 450LXI
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2015
dentmac dentmac is offline
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The Hadley system remains powered even with coach master off.
With the system indicating level by the green SLS arrows,if the "Set " button stays lit, the coach will re-adjust if one bag leaks (and there is ACC air) If air is low, you can hear the valves in the controller clicking..
Pressing "Set" again to turn the light off "saves power" as indicated in the manual. Coach stays level but I would think a corner could drop with an air leak.
RE the RHC. The exhaust air for all bags is at the controller.Bay 1.. I think the valves are there: part of the manifold. Each wheel has an electronic sensor.
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  #9  
Old 02-10-2015
Doubledoc Doubledoc is offline
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Ross,
I agree with you that there are elctronic ride sensors for each wheel. The air line for the two air bags on the left drive wheel are tied together. I believe the tag air line is separate. The control valves for the air supply to each wheel are not at each wheel. They must be with Hadley control system. The coach does not have traditional RHC valves that are mechanically connected to the axel- only electronic sensors and air lines to the air bags.

Trying to find a leak that is so slow will be difficult. So I plan to live with the system the way it is for now. For all I know we have had a slow leak in this system from the beginning. The manual says that it is not designed to be leak tight.
Thanks for help.
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'06 450LXI
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  #10  
Old 08-03-2016
JohnLombardozzi JohnLombardozzi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubledoc View Post
After solving the accessory air leaks, I found that our coach(2006 450LXI) has an air suspension problem as well.

When the coach is allowed to sit without a source of compressed air for several weeks, the left rear corner of the coach drops down (both drive and tag axel). The right side seems fine. The front left side will begin to sag and lower after another few weeks. Right side is still OK. The system air pressure normally 125 psi drops to about 75 psi and holds at that pressure as indicated on the front, rear, and acessory air pressure gauges. When the engine is started and run a few minutes, all air pressures return to normal and so does the ride height.
The coach has a tag dump capability but not a system dump.
It is possible that one or more of the Ride Height Control (RHC) valves on the left side are slowly leaking and could be the problem.

If so, should only the leaking RHC valves be replaced or should they be replaced in pairs( left and right side) or should all RHC valves be replaced ??

Any other ideas as to what would cause this problem? air bags etc?
Jim:

can you give me an update on your research and repairs. I have M450 2005 and had a lot of problems with the Hadley. I would like to make some upgrades so it functions better. One thing that CoachCraft did for me is add a second AirDryer in that has helped but the system seems to have contamination that we simply can not get to go away. We have replaced the manifold as well.
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