Wanderlodge Owners Group  
BuyByeBlueBird.com
WOG Gear

Go Back   Wanderlodge Owners Group > Mechanic's Corner > M380 (Unique Issues)

M380 (Unique Issues) If you have a unique issue with your M380 model coach and it can't be answered in one of the other forums here, then this is where you can list it.....list your M380 Parts here too.

Site Search:
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 07-15-2017
NoGas's Avatar
NoGas NoGas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DFW & PHX
Posts: 1,616
Default Eliminating Front Slide Solenoid on M380

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB View Post
...Second is the relay mentioned under the driver window. That is not connected directly to the master switch, instead it is slaved to a relay that is behind the panel in the right-front dash that is the "real" master solenoid. The big solenoid only supplies power to the front slide, nothing else. It draws a couple of amps and gets really hot. A few of us, myself included, have wired around it so that it is cold, but there is always power to the slide...
As mentioned, that solenoid gets HOT and it uses amps in the process. Because we often boondock without shore power, I didn't wire around this solenoid but instead put an extra manual switch there so this load can be turned off. Other load vampires are also on dedicated switches including the microwave, induction stove top (plugged into the switched insta-hot outlet), front entertainment center, rear TV and rear slide converter/power. Even with the big battery pack and huge solar array now installed on the coach, there's no sense in throwing amps down the "drain".
.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1918.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	194.1 KB
ID:	50006   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1920.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	207.7 KB
ID:	50007  
__________________
Van & Toni in TX & AZ
2004 M380 DS & 2013 Fiat 500 Pop
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-28-2018
RVinCT's Avatar
RVinCT RVinCT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Rockfall
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB View Post
Second is the relay mentioned under the driver window. That is not connected directly to the master switch, instead it is slaved to a relay that is behind the panel in the right-front dash that is the "real" master solenoid.
I'm trying to understand this. The relays "behind thr panel in the right-front dash" are all fairly small. I think you are saying that this small relay drives the large relay "under the driver window". Correct? That would make sense if the drive current is high for the large relay under the window.

Quote:
The big solenoid only supplies power to the front slide, nothing else. It draws a couple of amps and gets really hot. A few of us, myself included, have wired around it so that it is cold, but there is always power to the slide.
But I thought the front slide was pneumatically operated? Why does it need a big 12v relay? I assumed that those two big relays under the driver window were to cross connect the main RV battery system with the engine battery system, and to cross connect the main RV battery system with the generator battery system. No?

If not, where are those cross connect relays? They would need to be fairly large to handle starting currents, and making them 100% duty cycle is important if they are left on for long periods to allow charging of both batteries when cross connected.

Quote:
You mentioned that your coach batteries do not appear to be fully charged. I'm not clear on which ones you refer to as coach - I call the two sets House and Chassis, and either could be coach.

If you are talking about chassis batteries, it is possible that they are not being charged by the inverter. In my M380 a prior owner tied both battery sets together permanently, so that is not an issue I have, but it should be easy to check. Put a meter on each set of batteries, and both should show 13.4-13.6 with the converter showing float.

With the alternator set low, my batteries arrived at a destination well below full charge. I'm not sure a 15-amp connection would be enough power to complete a decent charge while running the refrigerator and all the parasitic draws, such as that hot solenoid.
I'm also working on understanding how the engine charging is distributed to the RV main batteries. Are we supposed to cross connect batteries whole driving or is there some automatic system?

This learning curve is really steep!
__________________
Todd and Karen Pattist
Rockfall, CT
2007 Double Slide M380 "Bertie"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-28-2018
Dc2x4drvr's Avatar
Dc2x4drvr Dc2x4drvr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: JAX Based
Posts: 1,123
Default

The generator battery is ONLY charged by the GEN alternator..
Battery charging is all automatic in motion, and AUX battery switch centered.
I doubt that 110v when parked will handle your charging needs, probably 30 amps minimum to keep engine batteries and house batteries topped off..
__________________
Lance & Linda Hall
2004 M380
Body #234
"Smooth Ride"
Full Timing with 2 cats
214-729-1384
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-28-2018
DW SD DW SD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Encinitas
Posts: 1,178
Default

I have removed my slide solenoid by disconnecting one trigger-side wire and joining the two large on one post.

I also turn off the front entertainment breakers and rear tv and microwave.
In that state static draw is about -5 amps with fridge on propane and all DC off.

I plan to add a 110AC switch for the micro so I don’t have to turn it off in the breaker panel.

Todd - when you have the Magnum BMK setup with remote (ARC-50) you should find yourself be down to something similar.
I haven’t measured with the coach master off.

Also the charger should put out 100+ amps at 14V DC. That’s at 12 amps AC so you should charge while overcoming any static loads. Note it isn’t 100% efficient but is close. Maybe 90%.
__________________
Doug W.
Encinitas CA
2004 M380
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-28-2018
NoGas's Avatar
NoGas NoGas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DFW & PHX
Posts: 1,616
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVinCT View Post
...I assumed that those two big relays under the driver window were to cross connect the main RV battery system with the engine battery system, and to cross connect the main RV battery system with the generator battery system. No?
No, those two under-window solenoids have nothing to do with cross-connecting battery systems. The right relay in the under drivers window powers the front slide electronics only. Without power through (or around) that solenoid the front slide will not work. When disconnected with a manual switch as I have done or bypassed as Don did, the substantial phantom load of that right solenoid is eliminated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVinCT View Post
If not, where are those cross connect relays? They would need to be fairly large to handle starting currents, and making them 100% duty cycle is important if they are left on for long periods to allow charging of both batteries when cross connected. I'm also working on understanding how the engine charging is distributed to the RV main batteries. Are we supposed to cross connect batteries while driving or is there some automatic system?
The cross-connect relays are inside the large gray Power Distribution panel located in the 6R bay beside the engine engine start batteries. Operation of that interconnect was discussed in the 3rd paragraph of post #6 above. When on shore power or at home, I turn that dash Aux switch ON to interconnect the Engine Start batteries (Chassis) with the House batteries. Since my batteries are ALL AGM’s from the same manufacturer, they have the same charging profile and that makes charging them all at the same time a simple matter. When pulling out on a trip I change the Aux switch to the middle position. Think of that setting as the “Automatic” position. With this switch setting, the two banks of batteries interconnect with the engine alternator when it is putting out sufficient voltage. When off-grid without shore or geny power & the Aux switch is in the middle position, the battery pack interconnects will not actuate. This keeps the Engine and House batteries separate and that avoids getting stuck out with two dead battery packs. You’ll find another WOG thread on adjusting the engine alternator output voltage such that the engine alternator can fully charge both battery packs when driving the coach. I have not done this since I have lots of solar and giving two “competing systems” control at the same time might cause problems. As Lance said, the geny battery is your third “system” and it is not connected to the other two banks in any way. It is charged solely by the generator when running. Some have added a small battery maintainer to keep it charged when on shore power for long periods.

Charging batteries off a “thin” 120V 15 or 20 amp line shouldn’t be a problem. It will just take longer. For several years my coach was stored with exactly that setup. As you mentioned, limiting the line draw with your inverter setting will keep it from overtaxing that thin line and blowing a fuse.

Lastly, it’s easy if say for storage purposes you want to make the M380 into a cold-dark coach that won’t discharge its batteries in 2 or 3 days. Simply unplug the shore power, then turn off the two silver Master battery disconnect switches: Side of Power Distribution box in the 6R bay and side of the PSU box in the 1R bay. The geny battery does not have a disconnect switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVinCT View Post
The learning curve is really steep!
With a coach that spends its time connected to FHU’s, not so much. However, optimizing a coach for serious off-grid boondocking takes some effort. I get a kick every year at Q watching all the FHU’ers learn how different running a coach off-grid can be.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	789B70BB-242E-4C33-82CC-3666CB8D0A5C.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	204.8 KB
ID:	57983   Click image for larger version

Name:	3DC4379D-8289-4C8A-B763-886202AC3644.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	195.9 KB
ID:	57984   Click image for larger version

Name:	AA5953DD-8D8E-4153-894D-9B6FA873483A.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	197.8 KB
ID:	57985  
__________________
Van & Toni in TX & AZ
2004 M380 DS & 2013 Fiat 500 Pop
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-29-2018
DonB's Avatar
DonB DonB is offline
Geek
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Eureka
Posts: 4,039
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVinCT View Post
I'm trying to understand this. The relays "behind thr panel in the right-front dash" are all fairly small.
I think you are talking about the relays "on" the panel, not "behind" the panel. Schematic 0065349 shows two 75A master solenoids powering the breaker columns on that panel labeled Master 1 and 2. The Master 3 and 4 columns are slaved from breakers on the first two columns.


I have not visually seen the 75A solenoids, nor do I know how much power they draw. I deduce their location from the sound they make when one of the master switches is turned on or off.
__________________
Don Bradner
Current: 2004 M380 Double Slide
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Prior: 1990 WB40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-29-2018
hooverg hooverg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: raleigh
Posts: 119
Default

I keep my 380 plugged into 110v 20a. Off course dash switch to charge start and house batteries. Keeps everything charged and I can run both electric heaters when needed.
__________________
garry hoover
raleigh, nc
2003 bluebird m380
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-29-2018
RVinCT's Avatar
RVinCT RVinCT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Rockfall
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGas View Post
The right relay in the under drivers window powers the front slide electronics only. Without power through (or around) that solenoid the front slide will not work. When disconnected with a manual switch as I have done or bypassed as Don did, the substantial phantom load of that right solenoid is eliminated.
So let me see if I've got this right. Under driver window, the right solenoid is always powered, gets hot, and is bypassed by some people who, like me, boondock and don't want to waste power. Q1: When does that solenoid turn off? If it is only powering the slide, then I'd expect it to be off when the slide keyswitch is off.
Q2: What is the left relay for?

In addition to those two relays, there are apparently two 75A relays behind the right side dash 12v fuse/breaker panel and two more cross connect relays for the gen/house (or does this cross connect go between gen/engine?) and house/engine cross connections.

The cross connects are controlled by the dash switches (I'd like the gen/house to be switchable always on to allow charging).

Q3:Which relays do the 12v master on the dash control? The two 75A (behind the right front below dash)?

Please do not feel obligated to try to answer everything. I'll keep researching and studying the circuit diagrams to figure as much as possible. I really appreciate all the help over gotten so far, and don't want to wear out my welcome.

Quote:
The cross-connect relays are inside the large gray Power Distribution panel located in the 6R bay beside the engine engine start batteries. Operation of that interconnect was discussed in the 3rd paragraph of post #6 above. When on shore power or at home, I turn that dash Aux switch ON to interconnect the Engine Start batteries (Chassis) with the House batteries. Since my batteries are ALL AGM’s from the same manufacturer, they have the same charging profile and that makes charging them all at the same time a simple matter. When pulling out on a trip I change the Aux switch to the middle position. Think of that setting as the “Automatic” position. With this switch setting, the two banks of batteries interconnect with the engine alternator when it is putting out sufficient voltage.
Q4: How is that automatic connection made? Does the engine trigger the cross connect relay or are there some large Schottky diodes there somewhere?

Quote:
You’ll find another WOG thread on adjusting the engine alternator output voltage such that the engine alternator can fully charge both battery packs when driving the coach.
Already found and studied. It's on my todo list, page 9.

Quote:
I have not done this since I have lots of solar and giving two “competing systems” control at the same time might cause problems. As Lance said, the geny battery is your third “system” and it is not connected to the other two banks in any way.
Except by the dash cross connect switch, which can do only momentary cross connection ... correct? Which system does it cross cinnect to?

Quote:
Charging batteries off a “thin” 120V 15 or 20 amp line shouldn’t be a problem. It will just take longer.
I agree. I'm on thin power now. Adding 50A service is on page 1 of my todo, but I'm not doing them in order.

Quote:
Lastly, it’s easy if say for storage purposes you want to make the M380 into a cold-dark coach that won’t discharge its batteries in 2 or 3 days. Simply unplug the shore power, then turn off the two silver Master battery disconnect switches: Side of Power Distribution box in the 6R bay and side of the PSU box in the 1R bay.
Do you know if that really kills ALL connection to the batteries?

Quote:
The geny battery does not have a disconnect switch.
Presumably, there is no draw on the gen other than when starting, but I'll check.

Quote:
With a coach that spends its time connected to FHU’s, not so much. However, optimizing a coach for serious off-grid boondocking takes some effort. I get a kick every year at Q watching all the FHU’ers learn how different running a coach off-grid can be.
In 40 years with our last coach, I can count the number of FHUs on my hands (plus toes). You may smile, but we chose the M380 specifically to use off grid. It had many features we wanted, floorplan, tank sizes, propane fridge, etc, but low phantom drain and simple electronics were not among them. . I'll eventually get it all figured out if everyone here doesn't kill me first for all the d#$n questions I'm asking. <GRIN>
__________________
Todd and Karen Pattist
Rockfall, CT
2007 Double Slide M380 "Bertie"
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-29-2018
RVinCT's Avatar
RVinCT RVinCT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Rockfall
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVinCT View Post
Q3:Which relays do the 12v master on the dash control? The two 75A (behind the right front below dash)?
I've studied the diagrams and can answer this for myself. The 12v dash master switch does indeed turn off these two 75A relays. I wonder how much current they waste running always on. I also am not certain what loads are still powered when they are off. Certainly turning off the battery main switches will kill everything, but that will be a lot more than I want some times. Hmmmm.
__________________
Todd and Karen Pattist
Rockfall, CT
2007 Double Slide M380 "Bertie"
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-29-2018
DonB's Avatar
DonB DonB is offline
Geek
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Eureka
Posts: 4,039
Default

I have turned off the master switch by accident more than once, and only had to reset a couple of things. Go ahead and turn it off, then see what loses power (I don't remember).


The left solenoid outside is key switch powered, and turns on power to things that need to run with the key on. I believe it is cold with the key off.


Unfortunately, the slide solenoid (and it is only the front slide electronics, real overkill) is not affected by the accessory key position. It IS turned off by the master, so if you decide to turn the master off you will have no draw there. I leave my master on, so removing that draw was an easy decision.


The rear slide has no power switch, although some of us have added one, otherwise it is always powered.


Some prior owner permanently tied my coach and house batteries together, and I've never been unhappy about that even though they are different battery types. A diode was added by a prior owner so the gen battery is charged by house and engine systems, but the gen battery does not feed back into the house system.


Switching both outside master battery switches off does cause everything to go dead.
__________________
Don Bradner
Current: 2004 M380 Double Slide
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Prior: 1990 WB40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Use of Aux Compressor Master Switch Rick Davis General 23 05-30-2017 12:45 PM
That Pesky 12v Master Switch rshrimp LX and LXI (Unique Issues) 1 07-30-2016 06:56 PM
AC Master switch on dash Terry&Michele Electrical 2 09-15-2014 10:28 AM
Electronic master switch jnxmas Electrical 0 03-06-2010 10:00 AM
Master Switch melted Paul Electrical 5 08-09-2009 07:28 PM

Web Search:

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.