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  #1  
Old 10-24-2019
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Kiwi3 Kiwi3 is offline
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Default Xantrex 3012 - Discharging Batts while on Shore Pwr

Kinda an odd problem. My Xantrex 3012 is flipping to 'invert' mode while plugged into shore power and then discharging the new batteries to the low battery cut off point, then beeping like a beeping thing.

I would think it would be impossible for the inverter to drain the batteries as the contactors in the closet are powered by the shore power. I pulled the floor and opened up the contactor boxes and they are in shore power mode (coil energized) so the inverter shouldn't be able to send power to anything. I guess the inverter itself could bring the batteries down over time but it seems way to fast.

I'm going to pull the inverter out in the next few days just to make sure I didn't connect anything to the DC terminals of the inverter that I shouldn't. Good time to clean that compartment I guess. I'll check the resistance across the inverter AC input to make sure the inverter internal transfer switch hasn't failed. The inverter does click constantly when on shore power so that may be it. Joy...
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi3 View Post
Kinda an odd problem. My Xantrex 3012 is flipping to 'invert' mode while plugged into shore power and then discharging the new batteries to the low battery cut off point, then beeping like a beeping thing.

I would think it would be impossible for the inverter to drain the batteries as the contactors in the closet are powered by the shore power. I pulled the floor and opened up the contactor boxes and they are in shore power mode (coil energized) so the inverter shouldn't be able to send power to anything. I guess the inverter itself could bring the batteries down over time but it seems way to fast.

I'm going to pull the inverter out in the next few days just to make sure I didn't connect anything to the DC terminals of the inverter that I shouldn't. Good time to clean that compartment I guess. I'll check the resistance across the inverter AC input to make sure the inverter internal transfer switch hasn't failed. The inverter does click constantly when on shore power so that may be it. Joy...
Can you check to see if the inverter is getting AC power? Maybe the circuit it is on just tripped?
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  #3  
Old 10-24-2019
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It is getting power, I'm not sure if it is dropping at some point as I haven't seen it happen. I get there when it starts beeping. Even if the inverter didn't like the line power, it shouldn't have anything to send the power too as the contactors should be on line not inverter. I'm going to need to see if something is connected to the battery connections and is draining the batteries prior to the inverter.
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  #4  
Old 10-24-2019
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I've seen problems due to environmental operating limits. Check the 3012's limits in back of manual, I imagine it can get pretty hot in your location.
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  #5  
Old 10-25-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi3 View Post
Kinda an odd problem. My Xantrex 3012 is flipping to 'invert' mode while plugged into shore power and then discharging the new batteries to the low battery cut off point, then beeping like a beeping thing.

I would think it would be impossible for the inverter to drain the batteries as the contactors in the closet are powered by the shore power. I pulled the floor and opened up the contactor boxes and they are in shore power mode (coil energized) so the inverter shouldn't be able to send power to anything. I guess the inverter itself could bring the batteries down over time but it seems way to fast.

I'm going to pull the inverter out in the next few days just to make sure I didn't connect anything to the DC terminals of the inverter that I shouldn't. Good time to clean that compartment I guess. I'll check the resistance across the inverter AC input to make sure the inverter internal transfer switch hasn't failed. The inverter does click constantly when on shore power so that may be it. Joy...
Bruce, just want to clarify a few comments you made.

1) Doesn't the inverter have its own sub-panel? If so the contractors in the closet would have nothing to do with the inverter.

2) Some of the newer inverters have a "feature" so when shore power is lower than expected it will use the inverter mode to make up the difference. You can monitor incoming voltage level and/or turn this feature off in the inverter programming

3) Some inverters power on by "sense" mode. Even if everything is power off something might have a small current draw setting off the inverter. You can increase the setting or disable this option while trouble shooting.

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  #6  
Old 10-25-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRPutz View Post
Bruce, just want to clarify a few comments you made.

1) Doesn't the inverter have its own sub-panel? If so the contractors in the closet would have nothing to do with the inverter.

2) Some of the newer inverters have a "feature" so when shore power is lower than expected it will use the inverter mode to make up the difference. You can monitor incoming voltage level and/or turn this feature off in the inverter programming

3) Some inverters power on by "sense" mode. Even if everything is power off something might have a small current draw setting off the inverter. You can increase the setting or disable this option while trouble shooting.

1) on my 94 WB the inverter sub panel is powered through the contactor. When there is shore/gen power the contactor is energized and passed shore power to the inverter sub panel. When there is no shore power the contactor is de-energized and pops to the inverter power feed which then goes to the inverter panel. I'm guessing that newer RVs bypass this since the newer inverters (mine included) have a transfer switch built in and don't need the contactor at all.

2) Yup, mine has that. But unless I bypass the contactor it wouldn't work on the coach as the inverter is locked out of the circuit.

3) I have the search mode turned off on the inverter.

As I write the answers to this I'm starting to think that I might need to rewire the inverter hookups regardless of what is going on with the inverter itself.

I mean I'm missing out on the line power boost mode and the problem may be the multiple contactors vs the inverter. I'll have to look at the electrical schematics as there are 4 contactors that feed from the fuse panel to the contactors to the inverter panel (I think as the inverter panel isn't on the schematic - see attached snap).

Not sure which would be better, to just remove the circuits from the main fuse panel and run those loads through the inverter to the inverter panel (which would mean loosing individual circuit breakers in favor of just two large circuit breakers on the inverter panel), or ditching the inverter panel and wiring the main panel into the inverter output.

I would have to either use a load shedding device or rejigger the panel which isn't something that I really would like to do.
Maybe rejigger the inverter panel with separate breakers instead?
Dunno yet.
Maybe just upgrade to the Victron inverter that already has outputs for Inverter Power and Non-Inverter Power feeds and run the main from the gen/shore transfer switch into it?
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  #7  
Old 10-25-2019
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K.I.S.S.


I'd simply bypass the BB contactor and simplify the circuit. The inverter (all now) have their own contactors and the programming internal is designed to function with it and sense through it. Then see if your issue changes.
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRPutz View Post
K.I.S.S.


I'd simply bypass the BB contactor and simplify the circuit. The inverter (all now) have their own contactors and the programming internal is designed to function with it and sense through it. Then see if your issue changes.
I think you're right.
I'm going to have to do the AMP math to make sure everything is covered but it should be. Not sure why there are 4 breakers on the main panel and only 2 breakers on the inverter panel, but Bluebird!

Attached are some diagrams:
1) What I think is the circuit with the two breakers from the inverter - each feeding two contactors.

2) I'm also attaching the 95 diagram that I think was from Magic Carpet. I only have half the diagram though (only one inverter). And the third attachment is what I think I need to mod it to.

3) Theory from ? on how BB wired the bus. I pulled it from WOG at some point and just found it in my Evernote. Thanks to whomever made it.

4) Theory from ? on a flow through system. Again I pulled it from WOG at some point and put it in Evernote and forgot about it. Thanks to whomever made it.
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Attached Files
File Type: pdf BB power circuits (1).pdf (205.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: pdf Flow thru power dia.pdf (153.4 KB, 7 views)
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  #9  
Old 10-25-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi3 View Post
I think you're right.
I'm going to have to do the AMP math to make sure everything is covered but it should be. Not sure why there are 4 breakers on the main panel and only 2 breakers on the inverter panel, but Bluebird!

Attached are some diagrams:
1) What I think is the circuit with the two breakers from the inverter - each feeding two contactors.

2) I'm also attaching the 95 diagram that I think was from Magic Carpet. I only have half the diagram though (only one inverter). And the third attachment is what I think I need to mod it to.

3) Theory from ? on how BB wired the bus. I pulled it from WOG at some point and just found it in my Evernote. Thanks to whomever made it.

4) Theory from ? on a flow through system. Again I pulled it from WOG at some point and put it in Evernote and forgot about it. Thanks to whomever made it.
I'll have to research your drawings later tonight after work but with a quick glance i can say throw out "inverter circuit theory.png" that is not correct.

1 - the inverter is powered by the main 120v panel as shown and does go to the inverter 120v panel as shown but that is all that is correct.

1b - once a device is added to the inverter sub-panel the main panel breakers #7, 13, 14, 21 no longer feed the loads. The loads are now fed via the inverter sub-panel breakers directly.

1c - When on shore or generator power the loads on inverter are still fed via the inverter. Its simply in by-pass mode so the power from the main panel flows through the inverter to the inverter sub-panel and feeds the loads.

As I stated, I can spend more time on this later tonight or this weekend if you'd like?


Michael


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  #10  
Old 10-25-2019
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Kiwi3 Kiwi3 is offline
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Thanks Michael. I think that I'm trying to say the same thing, but not communicating it well.

I attached the diagrams more for "future me" when I run into the same/similar problem and don't remember how I fixed it last time (At WOG I had the same water pump problem that I did in 2017 and ended up looking up my own thread for the fix. LOL).

Attached: Another generic way to look at flow through with inverter.
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