Wanderlodge Owners Group  
BuyByeBlueBird.com
Donate

Go Back   Wanderlodge Owners Group > Mechanic's Corner > HVAC, Air Conditioners, Aqua Hot, Primus, Webasto, Chassis Heaters, Furnaces and Water Heaters

HVAC, Air Conditioners, Aqua Hot, Primus, Webasto, Chassis Heaters, Furnaces and Water Heaters Questions and information about the wide variety of Heating and Air Conditioning as well as Water Heater systems available are discussed here.

Site Search:
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 08-24-2018
keen keen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rshrimp View Post
I saw something at the FMCA rally that was interesting. It was a retrofit shower system. It is a new floor for your shower that raises the floor up about 3 inches and is a 2.5 gallon tank. It heats it, pumps it up to the shower head, and catches it in the drain. Then it filters it and recycles it. You can shower all day on 2.5 gallons. When you are done with your shower, you hit a button and the water backflushes the filter into the gray tank.
It was big money but it was a great idea
Anyone have any details on that? Be interesting to take a look at and might be pretty easy to build in, if one could sort out the filter...)
__________________
david raistrick
Geneva, Florida
1987 PT40 8v92 FOR SALE!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-25-2018
wtwtw wtwtw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater
Posts: 514
Default watts valve

WATT'S MfrPartNo 0955801. you connect this between the hot and cold water lines at either the shower valve or the lavatory, your normal pump takes care of the rest. ebay has them
__________________
Bill Wilson
Clearwater, Florida
1991 sp36
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-25-2018
badandy badandy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: delavan
Posts: 2,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwtw View Post
WATT'S MfrPartNo 0955801. you connect this between the hot and cold water lines at either the shower valve or the lavatory, your normal pump takes care of the rest. ebay has them
You are still going to have to have a circulation pump to use this, but it eliminates the need for running a return line.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-25-2018
wtwtw wtwtw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater
Posts: 514
Default

your coach should already have a pump that you turn on to get water when boondocking. A second pump is not needed. even if not boondocking you should fill your tank and use your pump system and not be dependent on city pressure so you do not blow out any lines in an older coach
__________________
Bill Wilson
Clearwater, Florida
1991 sp36
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-25-2018
NoGas's Avatar
NoGas NoGas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DFW & PHX
Posts: 2,093
Default

I considered one of these... These units work well for a house, especially when the point of use has a single hot line that runs a long way from the house water heater. But not so much for a motor coach. In our case, I see a couple problems with them:

1. As Andy says, they need a pressurized supply of water and when boondocking, the only way to get that is by running our water pump. So one must run their 12V DC water pump and also a second 120v AC recycling pump? If you inject the recycled water back into the cold side, that pressurized water has to go somewhere. In a house, that extra pressure goes into and is absorbed by a large system, with the 30-50 gal water heater acting as an accumulator. Note: Watts specifically says their unit cannot be used with a tankless water heater. Our coaches might have a 6 gal or 11 gal WH, so adding this unit will add pressure to your water connections. Leaks?

2. “Either the shower or lavatory...” - The H/C lines may not be accessible and they might be run separately. On the M380, each faucet/valve has its own H&C Pex lines run from a central manifold. Attaching a Watts/Chile Pepper to the Lav sink will not heat water in the shower line.

3. Not KISS - adding an entirely new 120V AC pump when one can instead use the existing 12V DC water pump and simply open one valve, adds complexity and extra electric power use. Running an extra return line is a small price to pay for that simplicity & lower initial cost ($225 vs about $50 total).

Watts - https://www.premierh2o.com/collectio...ump_with_timer (Watts is Phoenix based and I’ve installed several of their RO units, including their Zero Waste RO unit’s. Have been thinking about adding one of their small std RO systems to the bus and piping the “waste” water they generate back to my tank...).

Chile Pepper - http://www.chilipepperapp.com
__________________
Van & Toni in TX & AZ
2004 M380 DS & 2013 Fiat 500 Pop
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-25-2018
wtwtw wtwtw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater
Posts: 514
Default

Your 12 volt pump pushes enough pressure to take a shower so you do not need another pump.
as far as adding additional pressure NOT the case. your hot and cold water lines are connected together at the water heater. The pump just circulates the water back thru the lines towards the heater. If you tie the hot and cold water lines together with or without this valve and turn on your pump the water in the system would circulate all day long thru the water lines with out adding any additional pressure that your existing pump does not already produce. So no additional pump or adding another water line needed
So the cost would be $53.77 (if you shop it)not $225.00 and a lot less labor than running an additional line



In the case of the m380 with seperate water lines then you would need a second valve.
__________________
Bill Wilson
Clearwater, Florida
1991 sp36
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-25-2018
Rick's Avatar
Rick Rick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bellefonte
Posts: 13,226
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwtw View Post
Your 12 volt pump pushes enough pressure to take a shower so you do not need another pump.
as far as adding additional pressure NOT the case. your hot and cold water lines are connected together at the water heater. The pump just circulates the water back thru the lines towards the heater. If you tie the hot and cold water lines together with or without this valve and turn on your pump the water in the system would circulate all day long thru the water lines with out adding any additional pressure that your existing pump does not already produce. So no additional pump or adding another water line needed
So the cost would be $53.77 (if you shop it)not $225.00 and a lot less labor than running an additional line



In the case of the m380 with seperate water lines then you would need a second valve.
Have you installed this on your SP??
__________________
Rick Shawver
1SG Ret
2000 LX
Vise Grips
Bellefonte, AR
F127656
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-25-2018
NoGas's Avatar
NoGas NoGas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DFW & PHX
Posts: 2,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwtw View Post
... If you tie the hot and cold water lines together with or without this valve and turn on your pump the water in the system would circulate all day long thru the water lines with out adding any additional pressure that your existing pump does not already produce. So no additional pump or adding another water line needed. So the cost would be $53.77 (if you shop it)not $225.00 and a lot less labor than running an additional line. In the case of the m380 with seperate water lines then you would need a second valve.
Valve or no valve but with just the coach demand water pump supplying pressure, I can’t see it

If the H and C pressure at the crossover line is equal to the pressure at the WH, you have created a loop but no water will flow. That is because both receive their line pressure from the same source, the discharge side of the coach water pump. That pump is outside of the loop you created. There are two ways around this: 1) Add a second switchable solenoid valve/line that would switch the “return” point to the inlet side of the coach water pump, or 2) Add a Chile Pepper (cheaper) or Watts pump which would solve this problem because they increase the return pressure above that of the overall system (as supplied by either the water pump or city pressure), thereby causing water to flow. My water tank is not under pressure so a return line can easily use normal water system pressure to “power” a return line with no need for an extra costly pump. From those 4 lines pictured above it’s an easy 9’ run across the ceiling of a couple bays. My AMAZON fittings came today so the shower will be “bucketless” tomorrow. I’ll let you know how it works, with pics of course
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	33CC3A1B-93F3-4063-AA09-C2E08889C202.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	196.8 KB
ID:	57187  
__________________
Van & Toni in TX & AZ
2004 M380 DS & 2013 Fiat 500 Pop
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-25-2018
badandy badandy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: delavan
Posts: 2,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwtw View Post
your coach should already have a pump that you turn on to get water when boondocking. A second pump is not needed. even if not boondocking you should fill your tank and use your pump system and not be dependent on city pressure so you do not blow out any lines in an older coach
First of all a bird uses the exact same components for plumbing as your house, so I don't see how it would blow unless you have a lot of that PVC hose that likes to leak on hose barbs. That water pump will not circulate anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGas View Post
1. As Andy says, they need a pressurized supply of water and when boondocking, the only way to get that is by running our water pump. So one must run their 12V DC water pump and also a second 120v AC recycling pump? If you inject the recycled water back into the cold side, that pressurized water has to go somewhere. In a house, that extra pressure goes into and is absorbed by a large system, with the 30-50 gal water heater acting as an accumulator. Note: Watts specifically says their unit cannot be used with a tankless water heater. Our coaches might have a 6 gal or 11 gal WH, so adding this unit will add pressure to your water connections. Leaks?
You need a really low-flow water pump that can handle hot water. Something that will move maybe 1 gpm tops. There are a lot of pumps used as solar heater circulators that run on 12vdc that take an amp or two. This pump only runs when you don't want to waste cold water (or dump it into the grey tank) to get hot water from a faucet. The standard pump that supplies the coach with water normally still works exactly the same. As the circulation pump whirls away the main pump is not even on unless you're drawing water from a faucet. I know it sounds weird, but this works.
Quote:

2. “Either the shower or lavatory...” - The H/C lines may not be accessible and they might be run separately. On the M380, each faucet/valve has its own H&C Pex lines run from a central manifold. Attaching a Watts/Chile Pepper to the Lav sink will not heat water in the shower line.
This is where that valve deal that goes on the hot and cold lines is handy. It uses the cold water line to push the unheated water from the hot line back into the system. You still must have a circulation pump to move the water, and after you run the hot water you have to flush the cold line to get cold water. The return line works much better, but you have to run a line from every location you want to have instant hot water. You can do them in parallel
[quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwtw View Post
Your 12 volt pump pushes enough pressure to take a shower so you do not need another pump.
as far as adding additional pressure NOT the case. your hot and cold water lines are connected together at the water heater. The pump just circulates the water back thru the lines towards the heater. If you tie the hot and cold water lines together with or without this valve and turn on your pump the water in the system would circulate all day long thru the water lines with out adding any additional pressure that your existing pump does not already produce. So no additional pump or adding another water line needed
So the cost would be $53.77 (if you shop it)not $225.00 and a lot less labor than running an additional line
No, you have to add a circulation pump no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGas View Post
If the H and C pressure at the crossover line is equal to the pressure at the WH, you have created a loop but no water will flow. That is because both receive their line pressure from the same source, the discharge side of the coach water pump. That pump is outside of the loop you created. There are two ways around this: 1) Add a second switchable solenoid valve/line that would switch the “return” point to the inlet side of the coach water pump, or 2) Add a Chile Pepper (cheaper) or Watts pump which would solve this problem because they increase the return pressure above that of the overall system (as supplied by either the water pump or city pressure), thereby causing water to flow. My water tank is not under pressure so a return line can easily use normal water system pressure to “power” a return line with no need for an extra costly pump. From those 4 lines pictured above it’s an easy 9’ run across the ceiling of a couple bays. My AMAZON fittings came today so the shower will be “bucketless” tomorrow. I’ll let you know how it works, with pics of course
12v circulation pump is under $100 and uses 1-2 amps @ 12vdc. They do not increase the pressure in the system at all. They create a pressure differential on either side of the pump and the water moves through it. This is how it circulates. It doesn't care if the system pressure is 5 psi or 50 psi already.

I am doing this exact thing in my coach right now. I should draw up a schematic because it's not that complicated. With the tankless on-demand the circulation pump and return line has the added benefit of actuating the water heater so you don't get that "cold spot" come through if you are taking a Navy shower.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-31-2018
NoGas's Avatar
NoGas NoGas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DFW & PHX
Posts: 2,093
Default Quick Hot Valve & Return Line (No Extra Pump Required)

When one turns on either a hot faucet or their shower, water doesn’t get hot until cold water is flushed out of the hot line. Running water to make that happen wastes approximately one gallon with each use and unnecessarily fills the gray tank. Those in FHU RV parks may not care but for off grid campers, less waste means fewer trips to the dump & fill stations.

Solution = Quick Hot: a single PEX line that is connected with a Tee immediately prior to the Lavatory and Shower faucets. That line recycles cold water from both hot lines back to the fresh water tank. A single solenoid-valve controlled by a momentary switch opens the recycling line and initiates the Quick Hot cycle. The coach water pump supplies pressure so an extra pump is not needed (keeping the cost down) and a red light in the push button switch indicates when the Quick Hot valve is open. A timer turns the Quick Hot OFF automatically upon expiration of a one minute timer.

Does it work? Turn the coach water pump ON & press the button. When the red light turns off and you have hot water. The shower takes about 5 sec since there’s a longer distance to the valve and there’s a 4’ shower wand line added to that. The lavatory faucet is instant because the recycle takeoff Tee is very close to the faucet. So yes, it works

Because the kitchen faucet is directly above the water manifold and it gets hot quicker, that faucet was not modified. I considered installing a Chilepepper (http://www.chilipepperapp.com/) H to C pump system there due to the slide, but didn’t due to the cost. This system is simple, inline with my KISS rule

Pictures of the Quick Hot install below (decor panels still off to expose detail):
.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	8A83A315-1300-4002-92F4-A8B55148F8AC.jpg
Views:	107
Size:	177.5 KB
ID:	57288   Click image for larger version

Name:	745D905D-032D-4E8D-B17B-4FCB5E4614D1.jpg
Views:	108
Size:	184.8 KB
ID:	57289   Click image for larger version

Name:	7E9CB9D2-B471-4871-851B-7ED251763118.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	195.6 KB
ID:	57290   Click image for larger version

Name:	27AE896C-B4DA-467F-80B3-6760F6F9FEAD.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	191.2 KB
ID:	57291   Click image for larger version

Name:	5CD62A9F-5CB3-45D6-9F07-2FB157BF2D7E.jpg
Views:	105
Size:	192.3 KB
ID:	57292   Click image for larger version

Name:	1F94E89E-643C-46B2-8006-D2A5E06493EB.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	191.9 KB
ID:	57293   Click image for larger version

Name:	189DB5C6-323A-42B1-8754-83A4B0D4AEBE.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	191.8 KB
ID:	57294   Click image for larger version

Name:	AE1384C4-6998-47D2-93D0-4381B0EE2C11.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	181.0 KB
ID:	57295   Click image for larger version

Name:	5E7EA839-8321-4C4A-BFE1-5B621CFA65B6.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	191.3 KB
ID:	57296   Click image for larger version

Name:	19749FF1-A68C-430D-8B8B-1B7BD077D3E9.jpg
Views:	101
Size:	172.3 KB
ID:	57297  

__________________
Van & Toni in TX & AZ
2004 M380 DS & 2013 Fiat 500 Pop
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No hot water in shower only, really weird, Other Water Issues (Moen) C&Knewbirds HVAC, Air Conditioners, Aqua Hot, Primus, Webasto, Chassis Heaters, Furnaces and Water Heaters 97 01-04-2019 12:31 PM
NO COLD WATER IN THE SHOWER chuck1933 HVAC, Air Conditioners, Aqua Hot, Primus, Webasto, Chassis Heaters, Furnaces and Water Heaters 28 08-11-2014 09:57 PM
shower -- hot water only sandy dyas HVAC, Air Conditioners, Aqua Hot, Primus, Webasto, Chassis Heaters, Furnaces and Water Heaters 15 09-22-2013 12:36 PM
shower water valve Luvoekars PT & WB (Twin Axle Pusher Unique Issues) 26 10-07-2009 10:21 AM
No Water to Shower birds_first General 3 02-25-2008 07:05 PM

Web Search:

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.